But but you're untrained and you have no hifi expertise and if you were a REAL audiophile, then you could even hear the difference between a 1ā¬ and a 2ā¬ schuko wall outlet. And you're also supposed to buy some expensive circuit breakers. Because measurements suck and different DACs can even provide more air in the soundstage and jitter is a killer of jazz drummers' brushes.
Snake oil update! š
- Thread starter BowsAndArrows
- Start date
You donāt think that I actually read any of the OP?
steadyshot
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Steve Woodhouse
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Firstly, have they said the Ultra will have a better DAC? Iām not saying they havenāt, I just canāt remember it.
If they have, no problem. A DAC can measure better, but not be audibly better. Example - distortion caused by jitter (or indeed anything) is inaudible below -115dB. So one DAC might measure -120dB, the next -125dB, the next -130dB. You wonāt be able to hear a difference, but theyāre measurably ābetterā. Some people like that pursuit of engineering excellence, and I have no beef with it at all, unless they try to kid themselves or others that they can (and others should be able to) hear a difference which is proveably inaudible.
steadyshot
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please donāt respond and keep it to yourself
steadyshot
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They know
BowsAndArrows
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wow, it's all kickin off in here, huh? 
@Steve Woodhouse thanks for your comments. we are aware that some people are used to/prefer just predicting what things will sound like by reading ASR-type measurements, instead of actually listening... if that's your point of view, then i respect it. i don't expect everyone to agree on everything.
however if you had instead come in and said, "look guys i've tried listening to these different DACs and i didn't hear a difference" then it would contribute more to the discussion, in my opinion. we're here to talk about the subjective experiences we have while listening - as many pitfalls as it may have. (it's the same as me asking anyone about anything - memory is provably fallible. does that mean we should never ask anyone anything about the past?
)
as @steadyshot pointed out, what was the point for WiiM to release the Pro+ after the Pro - if according to you they had already reached "transparency" by the release of mini?? how come you're not going in the pro+ thread and berating the people there who paid extra (apparently a total waste) for the better DAC? honestly go ask people who have tested all 3 and you'll start to appreciate what we mean... i have not come across a SINGLE person who actually listened that claims the mini's analog out is comparable superior to the Pro+...
it's not about money or percieved value or even sunk-cost fallacy to any of us i don't think. we just want to share our experiences so that these anecdotes can help us form a better understanding of what's going on. some of us around here don't believe that we as a society know everything there is to know about hearing (and sound reproduction etc) and that these can all be investigated using ASR-like measurements. there is a lot more to learn and understand. if you think the whole book has already been written and you know everything about hearing, then why waste your time with adiophools like us?
in fact, what we are actually doing is decoding and demystifying what the determinants of good SQ are in sound reproduction - many of which were first discovered privately by big players in the industry... in bringing this knowledge into the public domain - we're actually trying to get past the marketing gobledy gook we are fed by manufacturers that DO have a better performing product but are wishy-washy about WHY it's better...
@Steve Woodhouse thanks for your comments. we are aware that some people are used to/prefer just predicting what things will sound like by reading ASR-type measurements, instead of actually listening... if that's your point of view, then i respect it. i don't expect everyone to agree on everything.
however if you had instead come in and said, "look guys i've tried listening to these different DACs and i didn't hear a difference" then it would contribute more to the discussion, in my opinion. we're here to talk about the subjective experiences we have while listening - as many pitfalls as it may have. (it's the same as me asking anyone about anything - memory is provably fallible. does that mean we should never ask anyone anything about the past?
)as @steadyshot pointed out, what was the point for WiiM to release the Pro+ after the Pro - if according to you they had already reached "transparency" by the release of mini?? how come you're not going in the pro+ thread and berating the people there who paid extra (apparently a total waste) for the better DAC? honestly go ask people who have tested all 3 and you'll start to appreciate what we mean... i have not come across a SINGLE person who actually listened that claims the mini's analog out is comparable superior to the Pro+...
it's not about money or percieved value or even sunk-cost fallacy to any of us i don't think. we just want to share our experiences so that these anecdotes can help us form a better understanding of what's going on. some of us around here don't believe that we as a society know everything there is to know about hearing (and sound reproduction etc) and that these can all be investigated using ASR-like measurements. there is a lot more to learn and understand. if you think the whole book has already been written and you know everything about hearing, then why waste your time with adiophools like us?
in fact, what we are actually doing is decoding and demystifying what the determinants of good SQ are in sound reproduction - many of which were first discovered privately by big players in the industry... in bringing this knowledge into the public domain - we're actually trying to get past the marketing gobledy gook we are fed by manufacturers that DO have a better performing product but are wishy-washy about WHY it's better...
Brantome
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As this is a support and discussion forum, there will be occasions where weāll disagree with each other, perhaps even strongly, but hopefully always courteously and respectfully. Itās almost inevitable that the usual non-ASR v ASR aficionados or objectivists v subjectivists arguments will occur: you can choose to participate or ignore the discussion - or even block individuals if you disagree strongly and often enough with their views. But please keep it friendly - letās all have a chilled Easter Sunday and maybe even listen to some music, thatās what Iām off to do
steadyshot
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Salad is healthy on the plate not in topics 
Last edited:
Mike in NY
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The truly astonishing part is just how many members choose to completely ignore the stated disclaimer in the OP, instead getting up on a soapbox and once again waxing poetic about measurements, and stipulating what is the so-called "required" spend vs. the delusional.
Get over it, or if you can't, then just settle in at the groupthink site where you''ll be in great company. Nobody needs a lecture every time a thread like this is posted. The OP seems to be poking fun at himself all along, but hey, he wants to try an ethernet isolator... or an FMC, and if he's using shielded ethernet cables it very well could make an audible difference despite all of the expert commentary to the contrary.
spacegrass
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And so these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong
Though each was partly in the right
And all were in the wrong!
So oft in theologic wars
The disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance
Of what each other mean,
And prate about an Elephant
Not one of them has seen
The Blind Men and the Elephant - A poem by John Godfrey Saxe (1816ā1887) (Based upon a Hindu Parable)
Disputed loud and long
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong
Though each was partly in the right
And all were in the wrong!
So oft in theologic wars
The disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance
Of what each other mean,
And prate about an Elephant
Not one of them has seen
The Blind Men and the Elephant - A poem by John Godfrey Saxe (1816ā1887) (Based upon a Hindu Parable)
Steve Woodhouse
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You mean every time someone posts something you agree with, you donāt want to hear contrary arguments?
Steve Woodhouse
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This is a public forum - thereās a clue in the name.
Agreeing or disagreeing is accepted, as long as itās polite.
I know some objectivist places where thereād be sneering and name calling.
Not from me.
Iāll consistently state the case. If someone disagree, Iāll politely note what the evidence is, and ask them if theyāre prepared or able to provide a similar standard of evidence.
Thatās not rude. Thatās polite discussion.
What some people are calling rude is when someone makes an outlandish claim, which goes against all tested evidence, and they insist no one is allowed to question it.
Agreeing or disagreeing is accepted, as long as itās polite.
I know some objectivist places where thereād be sneering and name calling.
Not from me.
Iāll consistently state the case. If someone disagree, Iāll politely note what the evidence is, and ask them if theyāre prepared or able to provide a similar standard of evidence.
Thatās not rude. Thatās polite discussion.
What some people are calling rude is when someone makes an outlandish claim, which goes against all tested evidence, and they insist no one is allowed to question it.
steadyshot
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[QUOTE="Mike in NY, post: 46122, member: 601"despite all of the EXPERT commentary to the contrary.
[/QUOTE]
Not seeing an expert anywhere!
[/QUOTE]
Not seeing an expert anywhere!
Matterhorn
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Another thread hijacked by the usual suspect.
BowsAndArrows
Major Contributor
hey, you're welcome, glad you like the Natalie Bergman album.
There's somethin about her vocals that's super special! Sorry if i wasn't clear, what i meant was that after the changes i made to the system it is now easier to focus on the background crackle (even at lower volumes). this allowed me to hear that she was using a digital loop to create the sound effect, as opposed to it being a real artifact of recording on tape for example. if you listen closely (might be easier on headphones, although i don't really listen to music much on headphones anymore), you can hear a periodic pop in the crackling every 3-4s or so - it's slightly off-tempo with relation to the main beat, maybe to enhance the effect and make it feel more like real artifact of analog recording? maybe it's time for me to enter this crazy world you speak of?
thanks for the recommendation... 
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