Snake oil update! 🐍

[BowsAndArrows]

Thanks @Griff for the anecdote, this stuff might be common knowledge to some, but there are plenty of these "YouTube-review" consumers out there nowadays who buy stuff based almost SOLELY on the position of a product in ASR's SINAD (/THD+N) leaderboard or some other random measurements they have deemed the Holy grail...

I don't understand how people buy Hi-Fi stuff based purely on measurements and completely disregarding the listening part!! It's like buying a car without a test drive just based on its 0-100 acceleration number.

None of this is new I guess - manufacturers have always bent the rules in their marketing, and there have always been groups people that claim that every measurement necessary already exists.. But with some people nowadays it's all they care about/want to discuss, and the complete lack of respect for experiences is what I think is extreme...

especially when they claim that this line of thinking is "scientific". Lmao. True scientists are always aware of the limitations of their methods, and are always curious to figure out more about the unknown with humility and open minds...

Well, here's something to keep the thread interesting...

 

[Griff]

I don't understand how people buy Hi-Fi stuff based purely on measurements and completely disregarding the listening part!! It's like buying a car without a test drive just based on its 0-100 acceleration number.

I suppose it can be quite difficult these days to get a hifi shop where you can listen before you buy. There is always buy and send back within 14 days or whatever, but thats a bit of effort. I have 3 hifi shops near me that you can listen to kit like Denon, NAD etc but none stock a Topping or SMSL amp etc.

The good news is that due to the success of WIIM they all stock WIIM devices now and will demo. Trouble is I don't think that is a common situation and so we are back to measurements, reviews and...... of course forum debates

 

[Steve Woodhouse]

I don't understand how people buy Hi-Fi stuff based purely on measurements and completely disregarding the listening part!!

In relation to speakers, this is a strawman argument - I’m not sure anyone does, or that anyone advocates doing so.

For electronics (DACs and amps) , if an item measures as transparent, there’s absolutely no need to listen/audition. By definition, it can’t sound ‘wrong’ it even different to any other transparent product.

This has been demonstrated in double blind test after double blind test. Those disagreeing have been challenged to show they can hear a difference in a controlled test, and either failed to take up the offer, or have failed the test.

I’ve never been to Poland, but if someone tells me the rain there is wet, I really don’t have to pop over to test it for myself.

 

[steadyshot]

Where are the properly conducted blinds test please? Any links ? They cost a lot of money to be done correctly

 

[hoohoohoo]

Where are the properly conducted blinds test please? Any links ? They cost a lot of money to be done correctly

Ummm...this is a snake oil thread. I have visions of agreeable double blind Polish strawmen with ruffled feathers doused in snake oil listening for Ethernet noise.

 

[Steve Woodhouse]

Where are the properly conducted blinds test please? Any links ? They cost a lot of money to be done correctly

There’s a list as long as your arm here:

Testing audiophile claims and myths

(As I find more blind tests I will add them to the list here.) So, we love to have a good discussion/argument/rant here (and on all the other audio forums I have seen) about the many claims audiophiles make that others dismiss as myths. The arguments go round in circles; I hear a difference -...

www.head-fi.org

Of course, here’s the real point. The individual criteria and parameters have all had numerous fully academic tests, which have shown the absolutely of what level of noise, what % distortion, etc., are audible to humans. These are undisputed, and many have been around for years, and re-tested.

In a way, insisting a particular, individual DAC needs to be blind tested is a red herring. If we know the FR is flat, and noise inaudible (etc., etc.) then it’s impossible for it to sound different to any other DAC which also measures a pass in all the relevant areas.

If that theory is incorrect, it should be a piece of cake to disprove. As it hasn’t been, we can safely continue with that, until and unless proven otherwise. We don’t need to blind test every measurably transparent DAC against every other measurably transparent DAC.

 

[Griff]

Well, here's something to keep the thread interesting...

Really interesting video,

 

[Matterhorn]

I have 4 DACs in my house and they all sound different from each other. Maybe I have bionic ears . When it comes to sound I only trust my ears. The Schitt Bifrost that I bought didn't sound anything like my current R2R DAC. It sounded great but the sibilance became tiring after 30 min or so but it was very dynamic. YMMV.

 

[onlyoneme]

I’ve never been to Poland, but if someone tells me the rain there is wet, I really don’t have to pop over to test it for myself.

Well, you can just ask me

 

[onlyoneme]

Where are the properly conducted blinds test please? Any links ? They cost a lot of money to be done correctly

foobar2000: Components Repository - ABX Comparator

foobar2000

www.foobar2000.org

 

[onlyoneme]

For electronics (DACs and amps) , if an item measures as transparent, there’s absolutely no need to listen/audition.

It's an extremely incorrect statement which could be partially correct only if all the measurements were made in the end-user environment with his loudspeakers for example when talking about amps.

 

[Matterhorn]

It's an extremely incorrect statement which could be partially correct only if all the measurements were made in the end-user environment with his loudspeakers for example when talking about amps.

True, that is why I compare audio equipment by using highly resolving wired headphones. IMHO it is the best way to evaluate equipment.

 

[Steve Woodhouse]

It's an extremely incorrect statement which could be partially correct only if all the measurements were made in the end-user environment with his loudspeakers for example when talking about amps.

No, that’s a nonsense.

If you can’t measure in a lab things which are known to be audible, you certainly won’t be able to hear them in the real world.

Just think about it. You create a sine wave, and measure the distortion. It’s so low you can’t hear it.

You’re suggesting you might be able to hear it played on a sine wave, over perfectly balanced, distortion-free headphones, in an enclosed listening room, but you won’t hear it over a pair of loudspeakers in a non-anechoic room, in the midst of music?

That’s quite crazy.

That’s like saying…let’s think.

You attach a product which causes vibration, and attach it to a pice of wood on which you place your gave. Then you measure the point at which you feel it.

What you’re saying is, if you sit on a bumpy bus, on the back seat, sat over the engine, and conduct the same experiment, you’ll be more likely to feel it at that level.

That’s quite crazy, and utterly indefensible.

Bottom line. If you can’t hear it in a precise, controlled environment, you’re not going to hear it in the wild.

It’s like measuring the quietest whisper you can hear in a sealed, silent room, coming down 0.5dB from that so you know you can no longer hear it, then claiming you can hear it in a noisy railway station.

Quite, quite crazy. Utterly illogical. Flying in the face of every scientific principle.

 

[Griff]

It's an extremely incorrect statement which could be partially correct only if all the measurements were made in the end-user environment with his loudspeakers for example when talking about amps.

Agree, and this is probably the thing that gets me thinking about 'blind tests'. A/Bing of two things doing similar things like playing music without something familiar in the mix is something I find very hard.

I remember reading an interview with Tony Andrews of Function One fame. And he said he tested every system he fitted out with the same tune, Gat Decor Passion. His reason is that he knew what the snare drum should sound like and it was so pronounced he could pick up the difference and fix the issue.

Back to the thread and how this links in. I can tell the difference between small changes on my system better than on other people's systems. That's because, in my opinion my familiarity of my own system means change is easier to pick up.

 

[onlyoneme]

No, that’s a nonsense.

If you can’t measure in a lab things which are known to be audible, you certainly won’t be able to hear them in the real world.

Just think about it. You create a sine wave, and measure the distortion. It’s so low you can’t hear it.

You’re suggesting you might be able to hear it played on a sine wave, over perfectly balanced, distortion-free headphones, in an enclosed listening room, but you won’t hear it over a pair of loudspeakers in a non-anechoic room, in the midst of music?

That’s quite crazy.

That’s like saying…let’s think.

You attach a product which causes vibration, and attach it to a pice of wood on which you place your gave. Then you measure the point at which you feel it.

What you’re saying is, if you sit on a bumpy bus, on the back seat, sat over the engine, and conduct the same experiment, you’ll be more likely to feel it at that level.

That’s quite crazy, and utterly indefensible.

Bottom line. If you can’t hear it in a precise, controlled environment, you’re not going to hear it in the wild.

Does the lab use your own loudspeakers as the load? Do you have an idea how real, reactive loads can affect the amp performance? Or even resistive ones but without a constant resistance?

 

[Matterhorn]

And... the evangelists are back

 

[Brantome]

While Elton John thinks Saturday night’s alright for fighting, please bear in mind the group rules and disagree agreeably or I may need to let the sun go down on this thread

Thanks

 

[Mr Ee]

While Elton John thinks Saturday night’s alright for fighting, please bear in mind the group rules and disagree agreeably or I may need to let the sun go down on this thread

Thanks

Two musical references in one sentence!
And I agree agreeably. Let it be, let it be...

 

[Steve Woodhouse]

Does the lab use your own loudspeakers as the load? Do you have an idea how real, reactive loads can affect the amp performance? Or even resistive ones but without a constant resistance?

For a kick off, the post you quoted was talking about DACs, which are measured at RCA/XLR out, do amp output to loudspeaker isn’t relevant.

For amps, different loads are used.

 

[onlyoneme]

For a kick off, the post you quoted was talking about DACs, which are measured at RCA/XLR out, do amp output to loudspeaker isn’t relevant.

I've responded to your statement about dacs AND amps.

For amps, different loads are used.

We are on the WiiM forum, there are references to ASR measurements published here quite often. So, which loads were used in this Amp review?

WiiM Amp Streaming Amplifier Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the WiiM Amp streaming amplifier. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $299. I was pleasantly surprised by the good bit of weight this small box has. It will help it not slide with the weight of the speaker wires and such. Back panel shows...

www.audiosciencereview.com