Digital volume control question - which is better?

[coppo23]

24bit 96Khz source in most cases.
Is it possible to determine if using digital volume in the wiim pro or an external DAC (SMSL M500 in my case) is better?

Scenario one - use digital volume in wiim pro feeding optical into M500 DAC set at fixed volume
Scenario two - use fixed volume in wiim pro feeding optical into M500 DAC set to adjust the volume
I also have a two position relay analog attenuator so I tend to use digital volume at always 25% or higher.

As I understand it - the main difference is how good the software volume algorithm is in each product and whether one is better than the other?
From ease of use point of view - scenario 1 is better because I have two way comms with the wiim. I can only 'shout and hope using IR' at the M500.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

 

[Brantome]

WiiM devices only produce bit perfect output at fixed volume and with no EQ, so I’d say that would produce a better signal with volume control being done at the end of the chain in your DAC or amp. TBH, I’ve tended do that since I started using hi-fi gear - set the devices early in the chain at their max, and control the volume on the last device.

 

[coppo23]

Thanks for the comment. I understand the basics of this but now have a totally digital system up to the power amp inputs - excluding the relay attenuator that is. My reason for the relay attenuator is that the system has two modes - no attenuation - for parties and louder music and 30dB attenuation approx which means normal listening levels - digital volume typically in the top half upwards. I also do have a motorised high quality pot - and could keep the volume control right at the end and analogue. That solution means a good bit of construction work and seems ever so slightly - old hat! Also channel balance won't be as good as digital volume over the volume range. I don't use EQ as such- either digital or analogue.

That means that at the moment the volume has to be digitally controlled but its a case of whether the wiim or the smsl M500 do the digital calculations and implementation better than the other. You would think a digital volume calculation is the same whichever device does it - but I'd love to know if that is the case.

Just for info - I am currently playing with WIMM pro at fixed (bit perfect) output and M500 doing the volume control. It sounds so much better than what I had before so I am still in the 'that sounds amazing' camp. It is less convenient because I have no idea (on the music control app) what level the M500 gain is set at. It is only IR 'shout at' control. Also - I cannot use the wiim home app volume fader so have to use a separate app to control volume.

 

[Maurizio]

24bit 96Khz source in most cases.
Is it possible to determine if using digital volume in the wiim pro or an external DAC (SMSL M500 in my case) is better?

Scenario one - use digital volume in wiim pro feeding optical into M500 DAC set at fixed volume
Scenario two - use fixed volume in wiim pro feeding optical into M500 DAC set to adjust the volume
I also have a two position relay analog attenuator so I tend to use digital volume at always 25% or higher.

As I understand it - the main difference is how good the software volume algorithm is in each product and whether one is better than the other?
From ease of use point of view - scenario 1 is better because I have two way comms with the wiim. I can only 'shout and hope using IR' at the M500.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Hi @coppo23
I have an SMSL 500MKIII, and I have fixed volume as on DAC as on WiiM Pro.
I regulate the volume from my Pre Amp

 

[coppo23]

Hi @coppo23
I have an SMSL 500MKIII, and I have fixed volume as on DAC as on WiiM Pro.
I regulate the volume from my Pre Amp

Thanks - that would be best solution probably but my problem is that I wasn't going to have a preamp at all other than the two step relay attenuator so I have to use one or other of the digital volume controllers. (I do have a motorised pot that I could build into something - but that would take a fair bit of work, possibly introduce noise, imbalance and a bit of distortion so may not give me any noticeable quality gain over using the M500 or wiim pro digital volume.)

I was hoping to learn from someone how has inside knowledge about the digital volume algorithms in the wiim pro and M500. I cannot tell the difference by ear!

 

[Achim1811]

@coppo23
Only for my understanding, what kind of amp do you use? Or are the signals out of the WiiM a raw material what is followed up in any way?
I know this relay attenuators only in Raspberry Pi (as hat on a dac hat if I remember right) or other diy projects.
For simply listening to music I am sure the way @Brantome and @Maurizio showed is in WiiM world the go to way.

 

[Maurizio]

24bit 96Khz source in most cases.
Is it possible to determine if using digital volume in the wiim pro or an external DAC (SMSL M500 in my case) is better?

Scenario one - use digital volume in wiim pro feeding optical into M500 DAC set at fixed volume
Scenario two - use fixed volume in wiim pro feeding optical into M500 DAC set to adjust the volume
I also have a two position relay analog attenuator so I tend to use digital volume at always 25% or higher.

As I understand it - the main difference is how good the software volume algorithm is in each product and whether one is better than the other?
From ease of use point of view - scenario 1 is better because I have two way comms with the wiim. I can only 'shout and hope using IR' at the M500.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

3

Thanks - that would be best solution probably but my problem is that I wasn't going to have a preamp at all other than the two step relay attenuator so I have to use one or other of the digital volume controllers. (I do have a motorised pot that I could build into something - but that would take a fair bit of work, possibly introduce noise, imbalance and a bit of distortion so may not give me any noticeable quality gain over using the M500 or wiim pro digital volume.)

I was hoping to learn from someone how has inside knowledge about the digital volume algorithms in the wiim pro and M500. I cannot tell the difference by ear!

Hi @coppo23
Just a stupid idea. Why worry if you hear no difference by ear? You listen to music with your ears, not with various instruments

 

[coppo23]

3

Hi @coppo23
Just a stupid idea. Why worry if you hear no difference by ear? You listen to music with your ears, not with various instruments

Ha! I know that - but I also know that that I can't hear when doing A-B testing goes out the window several months later when playing a certain track and something 'edgy' creeps in - or I think it does.

Like most hifi fanatics I swing from 'that sounds great' to 'something's not quite right' from time to time. Ideally I want to be 110% satisfied on day one I've done the right thing!

@coppo23
Only for my understanding, what kind of amp do you use? Or are the signals out of the WiiM a raw material what is followed up in any way?
I know this relay attenuators only in Raspberry Pi (as hat on a dac hat if I remember right) or other diy projects.
For simply listening to music I am sure the way @Brantome and @Maurizio showed is in WiiM world the go to way.

Hi. Not quite sure I understand what you are asking. My power amps are dual (bi-amped) 2 x100W designs with servo feed forward so they are pretty much DC coupled. Other than a passive relay controlled attenuator the M500 drives the amps direct. That's why I don't want or need to introduce a preamp. The amps and attenuator are my own build.

 

[Achim1811]

Ok, now I got it.
And the first part of your post regarding this special feeling I would sign without any further remark

 

[onlyoneme]

Thanks - that would be best solution probably but my problem is that I wasn't going to have a preamp at all other than the two step relay attenuator so I have to use one or other of the digital volume controllers. (I do have a motorised pot that I could build into something - but that would take a fair bit of work, possibly introduce noise, imbalance and a bit of distortion so may not give me any noticeable quality gain over using the M500 or wiim pro digital volume.)

I was hoping to learn from someone how has inside knowledge about the digital volume algorithms in the wiim pro and M500. I cannot tell the difference by ear!

I use a power amp with the fixed level line attenuator connected directly to the DAC and fed from the WiiM Pro. In such scenario I prefer to have my WiiM with fixed volume and to control the volume on the DAC. It's just a personal preference and an assumption that the DAC can apply volume corrections using a wider bit depth and with probably just better algorithms.
A comparison of SMPTE test signal attenuated by 6 dB on the WiiM and on the DAC:



As you can see a difference is barely visible.

 

[onlyoneme]

And more complex signal attenuated by 21 dB:

 

[coppo23]

That's very helpful thanks. The differenec as you say is very slight. I'll start with using the wiim to control volume purely because I have two way comms with it and can tell where I left the volume. I will use the M500 as a dumb DAC initially and see how it plays out.

 

[happykyd]

That's very helpful thanks. The differenec as you say is very slight. I'll start with using the wiim to control volume purely because I have two way comms with it and can tell where I left the volume. I will use the M500 as a dumb DAC initially and see how it plays out.

I just started using Wiim Pro and have a similar situation and pov as you, I prefer to use the Wiim remote to control volume but not if it has a material impact on 'bit perfectness'. What have you experienced with this?

 

[Mr Ee]

I just started using Wiim Pro and have a similar situation and pov as you, I prefer to use the Wiim remote to control volume but not if it has a material impact on 'bit perfectness'. What have you experienced with this?

As the other thread, digital volume control by definition means not bit perfect.
But seeing as so many people want/use EQ, PEQ, room correction etc. etc. then it seems to me that simply enjoying the final result is all that really matters.
Try it for yourself. Can you really tell if there's a material impact?
(Although some might argue that as you're listening for a difference then you will hear one regardless.)

 

[coppo23]

Hi.

I still use it with the wiim controlling the volume and the m500 set as a fixed 20db attenuator giving me a good range of control on the wiim that is mostly in its top 3/4 of digital travel (in other words both are digitally attenuating the signal - probably less than optimal.). The plan had been to implement a remote control analogue attenuator but never got around to it as the sound quality is superb and far far better than my ears as it is. Even at very low levels nothing about the quality of the sound disturbs me. In any case - at low levels the ears are not as good and I tend not be listening as closely. I don't use eq or room correction so hadn't tried that - other than to play around when I first got the Wiim.

This system is convenient as well - usually use the wiim app or alexa to control the music choice and volume and very occasionally home remote app via node red - all seamless. If the wife ever wants she can move the real volume control on the front of the sm500 - she hasn't so far.

I also have a high quality motorised pot salvaged from the old amplifier to use as a remote control attenuator. The work needed to implment that just didn't seem worth it and I'll probably sell it on ebay.

The m500 only remote control option is 'shout and hope' infrared - bit useless as there is no feedback to tell you what it is set at.
The other reason i went m500 was MQA but I am sticking with a mix of amazon music and my NAS music collection so never tried Tidal and MQA.

All in all I am very pleased with the system sound. Hope that helps.

Regards
Andy

 

[happykyd]

Hi.

I still use it with the wiim controlling the volume and the m500 set as a fixed 20db attenuator giving me a good range of control on the wiim that is mostly in its top 3/4 of digital travel (in other words both are digitally attenuating the signal - probably less than optimal.). The plan had been to implement a remote control analogue attenuator but never got around to it as the sound quality is superb and far far better than my ears as it is. Even at very low levels nothing about the quality of the sound disturbs me. In any case - at low levels the ears are not as good and I tend not be listening as closely. I don't use eq or room correction so hadn't tried that - other than to play around when I first got the Wiim.

This system is convenient as well - usually use the wiim app or alexa to control the music choice and volume and very occasionally home remote app via node red - all seamless. If the wife ever wants she can move the real volume control on the front of the sm500 - she hasn't so far.

I also have a high quality motorised pot salvaged from the old amplifier to use as a remote control attenuator. The work needed to implment that just didn't seem worth it and I'll probably sell it on ebay.

The m500 only remote control option is 'shout and hope' infrared - bit useless as there is no feedback to tell you what it is set at.
The other reason i went m500 was MQA but I am sticking with a mix of amazon music and my NAS music collection so never tried Tidal and MQA.

All in all I am very pleased with the system sound. Hope that helps.

Regards
Andy

Thinking I've landed similarly; using WiiM Home to choose music, then WiiM remote for play/pause, next/prev and volume control in the 75-100% range, happy to use the H190 vol control if I need to go lower or higher, sounding sen-bloody-sational and so much easier than being in and out of a tablet to run Bubble! Loving the WiiM remote presets as well!

 

[Mr Ee]

Thinking I've landed similarly; using WiiM Home to choose music, then WiiM remote for play/pause, next/prev and volume control in the 75-100% range, happy to use the H190 vol control if I need to go lower or higher, sounding sen-bloody-sational and so much easier than being in and out of a tablet to run Bubble! Loving the WiiM remote presets as well!

Oohhh, another H190.
Good choice

I often set the H190 quite high then use the wiim to control the volume.
As I mostly use tidal too, and tidal connect, I just use the tablet volume buttons.
Easier than the tiny buttons on the Hegel remote! And it reduces greasy fingerprint marks on it too...
However, if mostly tidal, why use the wiim app?!

 

[happykyd]

Oohhh, another H190.
Good choice

I often set the H190 quite high then use the wiim to control the volume.
As I mostly use tidal too, and tidal connect, I just use the tablet volume buttons.
Easier than the tiny buttons on the Hegel remote! And it reduces greasy fingerprint marks on it too...
However, if mostly tidal, why use the wiim app?!

You made me think about it, coz I just fell into it that way and when I did think about it, it's from using Bubble all this time, I've mentally parked the Tidal app as non-functional, just tried it this way (via Tidal) and everything works as I want, the flat fact is I got the WiiM entirely to have one remote and to cut the tablet chains!

 

[Musician]

Hi.

I still use it with the wiim controlling the volume and the m500 set as a fixed 20db attenuator giving me a good range of control on the wiim that is mostly in its top 3/4 of digital travel (in other words both are digitally attenuating the signal - probably less than optimal.). The plan had been to implement a remote control analogue attenuator but never got around to it as the sound quality is superb and far far better than my ears as it is. Even at very low levels nothing about the quality of the sound disturbs me. In any case - at low levels the ears are not as good and I tend not be listening as closely. I don't use eq or room correction so hadn't tried that - other than to play around when I first got the Wiim.

This system is convenient as well - usually use the wiim app or alexa to control the music choice and volume and very occasionally home remote app via node red - all seamless. If the wife ever wants she can move the real volume control on the front of the sm500 - she hasn't so far.

I also have a high quality motorised pot salvaged from the old amplifier to use as a remote control attenuator. The work needed to implment that just didn't seem worth it and I'll probably sell it on ebay.

The m500 only remote control option is 'shout and hope' infrared - bit useless as there is no feedback to tell you what it is set at.
The other reason i went m500 was MQA but I am sticking with a mix of amazon music and my NAS music collection so never tried Tidal and MQA.

All in all I am very pleased with the system sound. Hope that helps.

Regards
Andy

I have tried using fixed passive attenuators ( -20dB 10K ) before my HYPEX ncore poweramp, but in my opinion - the digital volume regulation with WiiM using spdif to dac is slightly better sounding than using a passive attenuator, i.e - even if the digital signal is attenuated in the WiiM as much as -30 dB , the sound is still better and more dynamic than using less digital attenuation + passive fixed attenuators.

I also think that the volume regulation in the WiiM app sounds slightly better than the TIDALs own app when using TIDAL connect. But I have no measurement evidence proving this.

I have also bought a passive volume control to use between my dac and the HYPEX ncore poweramp. It sounded worse than using the digital volume control in the WiiM and having my Dac directly coupled to my poweramp.

 

[happykyd]

I have tried using fixed passive attenuators ( -20dB 10K ) before my HYPEX ncore poweramp, but in my opinion - the digital volume regulation with WiiM using spdif to dac is slightly better sounding than using a passive attenuator, i.e - even if the digital signal is attenuated in the WiiM as much as -30 dB , the sound is still better and more dynamic than using less digital attenuation + passive fixed attenuators.

I also think that the volume regulation in the WiiM app sounds slightly better than the TIDALs own app when using TIDAL connect. But I have no measurement evidence proving this.

I have also bought a passive volume control to use between my dac and the HYPEX ncore poweramp. It sounded worse than using the digital volume control in the WiiM and having my Dac directly coupled to my poweramp.

Have you looked at this?

LightSpeed Attenuator – LightSpeed Attenuator