My new Wiim Pro

[Deleted member 2191]

Hello everyone,

I have just joined the forum, and this is my first post.

A brief summary of my experience with the Wiim Pro.

Main System:
Electronic crossover, with separate amplifiers for highs, mids, and lows.
Self-built speakers using a pair of B&W cabinets (currently housing highs and mids) and two Yamaha subwoofer cones (currently used for bass).
Direct drive loudspeakers.
Speakers spaced 2.5 meters apart, with a listening position at 6 meters.
Self-assembled DAC with low-phase noise references and battery-powered supply.
Various amplifiers, ranging from T-Amp groups to Class-D with the option to use a tube amplifier for mids (which makes a noticeable difference).
Solid-state amplifiers are powered by a source capable of handling them without significant voltage fluctuations (verified on an oscilloscope, not just a tester).

Secondary System:
Chario Hiper 1000 speakers.
Class-D amplifier.
Source: Echo devices connected to analog output (CD-quality for Amazon Music).

Results
During a purely auditory comparison on the main system, the Wiim Pro with Amazon Music Unlimited objectively sounds slightly worse than the DAC. However, as mentioned by someone in another thread, it is difficult to determine if it is "worse" or simply "different" without instrumental testing. Perhaps, indeed, the DAC handles the mid-range channel slightly better, especially when paired with the tube amplifier, but it's not a striking difference, just a slight improvement.

Presumably, if I were to compare the DAC and Wiim Pro with a spectrum analyzer and generator, I might find significant differences, and I might perform measurements at some point. However, my sixty-year-old ears are no longer capable of perceiving such subtleties.

I have not tried connecting the DAC to the Wiim Pro, not out of laziness, but because I consider it not very sensible. The DAC belongs to a price range that is quite different, making it less comparable to the internal components of the Wiim Pro.

Regarding the secondary system, well, here the Wiim Pro outperforms the analog output of any Echo device, but that was an expected result, right?

To conclude, this test is not based on scientific rigor. If you intend to use a Wiim Pro with a high-quality system, be aware that you might sacrifice a bit of quality for the sake of convenience.

However, if your system is not of high quality, the Wiim Pro will likely be an improvement over any other solution. In this case, I am referring to "CD-quality," as with such setups, you wouldn't be able to perceive the difference between it and a lossless 24/192.

These are my two cents to contribute to the discussion.

Regards, Frederico.

 

[Brantome]

I have not tried connecting the DAC to the Wiim Pro, not out of laziness, but because I consider it not very sensible. The DAC belongs to a price range that is quite different, making it less comparable to the internal components of the Wiim Pro.

I’d say a lot of people connect their WiiM Pro over optical or coax to an external DAC - that way the WiiM device is acting as a streaming transport and will deliver a bit prefect stream to your DAC of preference, perhaps exploiting the strengths of each device.

 

[Mr Ee]

I know of a number of people who connect their wiim digitally to systems that are hundreds of times the price of their wiim, and are very happy with its performance; i.e. although there is a huge price gap, they don't find a performance gap when the wiim is used purely as a streamer.
Try it!

 

[Brantome]

I know of a number of people who connect their wiim digitally to systems that are hundreds of times the price of their wiim, and are very happy with its performance; i.e. although there is a huge price gap, they don't find a performance gap when the wiim is used purely as a streamer.
Try it!

Agreed - my Linn MDSM/4 cost about twenty times more than a WiiM Pro and rather than being a mismatch, it’s a partnership made in heaven

 

[Mr Ee]

I’d say a lot of people connect their WiiM Pro over optical or coax to an external DAC - that way the WiiM device is acting as a streaming transport and will deliver a bit prefect stream to your DAC of preference, perhaps exploiting the strengths of each device.

I see we both avoided commenting on the elephant in the room
The one with the very fast flapping ears, if you get my meaning...

 

[Mr Ee]

A pro costs A$220. I know a few people using it into integrated amps (with dacs) that cost $18,000

 

[Deleted member 2191]

I’d say a lot of people connect their WiiM Pro over optical or coax to an external DAC - that way the WiiM device is acting as a streaming transport and will deliver a bit prefect stream to your DAC of preference, perhaps exploiting the strengths of each device.

First of all, thank you all for the responses.
Regarding the external DAC... well, anything is possible, but what would I discover? That a dedicated DAC sounds better than a small internal DAC? That's obvious; it would be strange if it were the other way around.
Does this mean that the Wiim Pro could be transformed into a Hi-End component simply by adding an external DAC? No, certainly not. At the very least, it would require changing its power supply and clock system.
I prefer to see the Wiim Pro for what it is because even in its current state, its performance is superb: a device that, despite its affordable price, delivers incredibly good performance.

Federico

 

[Mr Ee]

@Uncino
Nice to hear someone else's completely subjective thoughts match my own.
It's a great device (even using analog out) into many systems, just maybe not that way (analog out) in a main system where actually sitting and listening to the music is the main purpose. At that point I feel the dac/analog stage let it down. But then again, put into context of a $220 device...

 

[Mr Ee]

but what would I discover? That a dedicated DAC sounds better than a small internal DAC?

True, but you might be pleasantly surprised by just how good things can sound using a tiny, cheap device like this as a digital front end, even without a LPS upgrade or a gold plated optical interconnect
In my opinion/experience, the pro's analog out is significantly inferior to, and easily identifiable as such, any other "dac" I've used (other streamers, cd players, dacs).
Despite that scathing remark, I would hope anyone reading this would see that as I have 4 wiims I quite like them as digital sources!

 

[Deleted member 2191]

@Uncino
Nice to hear someone else's completely subjective thoughts match my own.
It's a great device (even using analog out) into many systems, just maybe not that way (analog out) in a main system where actually sitting and listening to the music is the main purpose. At that point I feel the dac/analog stage let it down. But then again, put into context of a $220 device...

"But of course.
It is often forgotten that we listen to music with our eardrums and then recreate it in our minds as a sequence of sensations.
This is profoundly different from the objective values measured by an instrument; we are not measurement devices (and I wouldn't want to be one).

 

[Deleted member 2191]

True, but you might be pleasantly surprised by just how good things can sound using a tiny, cheap device like this as a digital front end, even without a LPS upgrade or a gold plated optical interconnect
In my opinion/experience, the pro's analog out is significantly inferior to, and easily identifiable as such, any other "dac" I've used (other streamers, cd players, dacs).
Despite that scathing remark, I would hope anyone reading this would see that as I have 4 wiims I quite like them as digital sources!

Game over with such a small and affordable component like this.
Only the OCXO + PLL group of my DAC is twice the size of the Wiim, and the device carries a battery that weighs several kilograms.
Perhaps the idea of using an external DAC could be good for those who have equally compact DACs (I will certainly try it with the small Aiyma DAC, but I doubt I will find any differences), but mine is truly "oversized" .

 

[Achim1811]

We are in the current process of moving and from needing two instead of three rooms with music. Therefore the last weeks I had the time and the mood to scrutinize a lot of my old opinions. Confirmed is my meaning: Room, amp and speakers first and a DAC as last part in the chain which I would change at last when looking for an improvement.
Checked our little WiiM with the DAC option in my Accuphase integrated, with a Cambridge 200M and for pure curiosity I bought a tiny SMSL C100 for less than 100 €. The internal DAC in the WiiM was out quite quickly. The other three solutions weren't to identify for me with my 72 year old, but still quite well ears. Quite sure the reason for my satisfaction is the decent hifi, not a DAC.

 

[Deleted member 2191]

We are in the current process of moving and from needing two instead of three rooms with music. Therefore the last weeks I had the time and the mood to scrutinize a lot of my old opinions. Confirmed is my meaning: Room, amp and speakers first and a DAC as last part in the chain which I would change at last when looking for an improvement.
Checked our little WiiM with the DAC option in my Accuphase integrated, with a Cambridge 200M and for pure curiosity I bought a tiny SMSL C100 for less than 100 €. The internal DAC in the WiiM was out quite quickly. The other three solutions weren't to identify for me with my 72 year old, but still quite well ears. Quite sure the reason for my satisfaction is the decent hifi, not a DAC.

If one is seeking the utmost precision in reproduction (instrumental), the DAC is certainly a critical component. However, it's not enough to have a prestigious DAC; in fact, the brand often has little to do with what's inside the box. For example, your DAC may have the world's best integrated DAC circuit and the finest operational amplifiers, but if the power supply is noisy or the reference has a lot of phase noise... well, it's all in vain. That's why I chose to power this component with a battery and use a reference with extremely low phase noise.
Now it's extremely precise!

But this is all in regards to the spectrum analyzer. Does being extremely precise mean it sounds superb? Well... it depends... Electrically, it sounds fantastic and it has the characteristic of getting the best out of the mid-range channel when I use it with the tubes amplifier. However, considering the overall result, as I already mentioned, it's difficult, at least for my ears, to distinguish what "sounds better" from what "sounds different".
Maybe others can, but I honestly cannot.

A completely different matter is amplification and speakers. Especially speakers.
You can have the best chain in the world, but if the speakers don't work... well, they just don't work!
And it's not easy to have speakers that work well because everything changes depending on the listening environment, their spacing, and the listening position.
And then the type of music predominantly listened to, because a system designed for rock has very different characteristics from one intended for classical music. Speakers and amplifiers optimal for classical music may not be suitable at all for rock.

So, in the final analysis, the DAC is indeed important, but only in a context where everything else already functions at its best, starting from the speakers and characteristics of the listening environment.

 

[Vangelo51]

I have a Zen Stream which many people use in high end systems because it sounds so good. My main issue was that I got fed up waiting for Chromecast, so I bought a Wiim Pro.
I ran my Zen Stream with 12V LPS through my Audio-GD DDC into my DAC (Topping D90LE) and ran the Wiim Pro in a similar way.
I have not tried the Wiim internal DAC, but running the coax output I am hard pressed to tell the difference.....unless my 71 year old ears are to blame

 

[Achim1811]

If one is seeking the utmost precision in reproduction (instrumental), the DAC is certainly a critical component. However, it's not enough to have a prestigious DAC; in fact, the brand often has little to do with what's inside the box. For example, your DAC may have the world's best integrated DAC circuit and the finest operational amplifiers, but if the power supply is noisy or the reference has a lot of phase noise... well, it's all in vain. That's why I chose to power this component with a battery and use a reference with extremely low phase noise.
Now it's extremely precise!

But this is all in regards to the spectrum analyzer. Does being extremely precise mean it sounds superb? Well... it depends... Electrically, it sounds fantastic and it has the characteristic of getting the best out of the mid-range channel when I use it with the tubes amplifier. However, considering the overall result, as I already mentioned, it's difficult, at least for my ears, to distinguish what "sounds better" from what "sounds different".
Maybe others can, but I honestly cannot.

A completely different matter is amplification and speakers. Especially speakers.
You can have the best chain in the world, but if the speakers don't work... well, they just don't work!
And it's not easy to have speakers that work well because everything changes depending on the listening environment, their spacing, and the listening position.
And then the type of music predominantly listened to, because a system designed for rock has very different characteristics from one intended for classical music. Speakers and amplifiers optimal for classical music may not be suitable at all for rock.

So, in the final analysis, the DAC is indeed important, but only in a context where everything else already functions at its best, starting from the speakers and characteristics of the listening environment.

The last sentence I will fully agree and sign it.
My personal experience lend me to the much more relaxing situation I face now. The chase for the last percent is history and a grade of satisfaction became true. Could be it is kind of a metamorphosis from hunter to collector. We are still talking about a > 25k hifi, so no reason for moaning. But the irony is I became more reasonable in times which would allow so much more hunting
Although my frequent presence here could make one think otherwise streaming is the less important part of the hobby.
Music was my first love, and it will be my last one.

 

[Achim1811]

Regarding speakers. Making Accuphase the epicenter of all my gone and current "systems" has a simple reason. Playing with different speakers was important at each time. So, is an Accuphase amp always the "best" amp for a certain speaker? Nope, of course one can find a single perfect match. But my amps "worked" with all the different speakers I owned. Horns, broadbands, Maggies, name it. I think they brought all that speakers to 95% of its best possible performance. And if it didn't work I was sure the speakers were not good. For me.

 

[Deleted member 2191]

The last sentence I will fully agree and sign it.
My personal experience lend me to the much more relaxing situation I face now. The chase for the last percent is history and a grade of satisfaction became true. Could be it is kind of a metamorphosis from hunter to collector. We are still talking about a > 25k hifi, so no reason for moaning. But the irony is I became more reasonable in times which would allow so much more hunting
Although my frequent presence here could make one think otherwise streaming is the less important part of the hobby.
Music was my first love, and it will be my last one.

Look Ahbim, my main system has cost a bit of money (not that much) and a whole lot of time. In the end, it turned out exactly the way I wanted it, but between experiments, measurements, modifications, and rethinking... if I were to put even just 10€ value on the time I dedicated to it, its price would be astronomical

I wanted a system with separate amplifier for each frequency group that sounded exactly the way I desired at the listening position, and in the end, I achieved it. Or at least, I got very close because there's always something to improve... a slight internal resonance in one speaker, the bass channel's phase that can't be consistently aligned with the others... if you seek detail, there's always something to fine-tune.
But I undertook all that work because I knew in advance that my listening environment had the characteristics to justify an incredible number of hours of work.
If it wasn't the case, I would never have embarked on such an endeavor!

The most significant difference I hear comes from the tubes amplifier on the mids. But there, it's the amplifier that makes the difference.
Yes, there's a difference with one DAC over another, but before even considering the DAC, you need to have a tube amplifier.

If you ask why I don't always keep the tubes amplifier on the mids if it sounds better, well, it's because it heats up like an oven and consumes an unreasonable amount of electricity.

In my case, the advent of lossless streaming has been very important.
Before Amazon Music arrived, I had over 2TB of lossless tracks on the Cloud, and managing them was very inconvenient. Now, all I have to do is ask Alexa to play something, and the speakers start to play.

Have I become reasonable? Certainly yes, it's been at least three years since I last opened up the speaker cabinets to fix something

 

[onlyoneme]

Does this mean that the Wiim Pro could be transformed into a Hi-End component simply by adding an external DAC? No, certainly not. At the very least, it would require changing its power supply and clock system.

It's an easiest part actually as achieving on the DAC side a digital stream which equals to the source does not require a huge amount of money.

 

[Achim1811]

It was not my mind to change any of your ways, sure I could not even if I wished
It is so much good reason for all the different possibilities.
Because I always was a guy who let people , who are on dedicated fields simply better than I, do the jobs. They earn their money and I earn it otherwise. One could name me a lazy noob. All this stuff f.e. with measuring, nodes, standing waves will and shall be Bohemian villages for my remaining life time. I sat down and a guy from the dealer who sold me that DSP stuff for the living room and who knows what he did, made gymnastics with his items until I said at a certain point: Sounds good. That is fine. My new listening cave will be build good enough that I can remain without such witch work.
Outsourcing the things I do not have the background or, more important, I am not interested in "why" saved lifetime. Result was always the target. There was a budget and in this budget I wanted to see, or hear results. Worked extremely well in business, works for me extremely well in my hobby. I don't care about the technical part, I simply want to listen to music. Quite naive? May be.
As soon as it came to smart things or casting I am out. It is ridiculous enough that my car talks to me. So I do not want to talk to any magic cube. Old fashioned, I know.
Quite sure I reached (in the borders of my budget) the magic and self-defined 95%. And that is today all what I ever wanted.
Wrote in the name of KI and should be my last writing here.

 

[Deleted member 2191]

It's an easiest part actually as achieving on the DAC side a digital stream which equals to the source does not require a huge amount of money.

Evidently we are talking about the analog part, not the digital one.
Getting from a DAC an analog stream identical to the sampled source is simply impossible.
Obtaining an instrumentally indistinguishable one has a huge cost, it means that the precision characteristics of the DAC are superior to those of the measuring instrument (best wishes).
Getting one that sounds nice to listen to in the 2923 isn't very expensive.
The Wiim Pro's DAC delivers good enough sound, so using my gigantic DAC would be absurd.

When the Pro Plus is released I will be happy to purchase it for my main stereo, for now I like to use this tiny little tuner with no other components.