Snake oil update! 🐍

[steadyshot]

Exactly dummy loads mimicking the impedance curve of a real world speaker which most often dips 4ohms or below should be used. This is no brainer. Not using this is a serious omission and makes the review of an amp worthless

 

[onlyoneme]

and makes the review of an amp worthless

Thx for calling my Amp tests worthless

 

[steadyshot]

Thx for calling my Amp tests worthless

I was trying to back you up but then oh sh*t

 

[Steve Woodhouse]

I've responded to your statement about dacs AND amps.


We are on the WiiM forum, there are references to ASR measurements published here quite often. So, which loads were used in this Amp review?

WiiM Amp Streaming Amplifier Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the WiiM Amp streaming amplifier. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $299. I was pleasantly surprised by the good bit of weight this small box has. It will help it not slide with the weight of the speaker wires and such. Back panel shows...

www.audiosciencereview.com

That’s an ASR review. I was asked about scientific tests setting the semesters of what is audible.

But for clarity, load dependence is discussed in that review, and I think anyone with half a brain (okay, clearly not everyone reading the review) can figure that, if there’s a load dependence issue with one simple laid presented, it’s not going to magically sort itself out with a complex load.

By the way, the first person to measure applying complex loads was Erin, who’s gone in to compare the WiiM amp against others, and didn’t find an audible issue.

 

[Brantome]

I think anyone with half a brain (okay, clearly not everyone reading the review) can figure that)

Steve, can we dial back on this sort of comment please? Thx

 

[Steve Woodhouse]

Steve, can we dial back on this sort of comment please? Thx

Forgive me.

 

[Steve Woodhouse]

As we’re employing musical references, may I quote Radiohead.

Every time someone tells me they can hear a difference which can’t be measured, my head automatically plays There There, “Just ‘cause you feel it, doesn’t mean it’s there.”

 

[onlyoneme]

load dependence is discussed in that review

With some purely resistive loads. But you don't listen to power resistors, do you?

if there’s a load dependence issue with one simple laid presented, it’s not going to magically sort itself out with a complex load

Is there magic that can determine exactly how speaker X will affect amplifier performance when only measurements taken with resistive loads are available?

the first person to measure applying complex loads was Erin

I don't think he was the first, but he should be applauded for incorporating more complex loads into his procedures.

What about some tests and conclusions here

AIYIMA A07 TPA3255 Amplifier Measurements and Review - LM4562 (and OPA2134) option

AIYIMA A07 TPA3255 Amplifier Measurements LM4562 option I received my A07 yesterday, on January 6, 2021, shipped from Italy. Purchased at Amazon.de and as stated on their website, it arrived without a power supply. I am testing the A07 with 2 different power supplies. One of them is a linear...

www.audiosciencereview.com

or here

Class D AIYIMA A07 amplifier (ABX) listening test

I was curious if inserting AIYIMA A07 TPA3255 class D amplifier in the D/A – A/D loop would be audible. I tested the amp in another thread and found that the frequency response depends, at higher frequencies, on speaker complex impedance, due to amplifier's output LC filter - that is outside...

www.audiosciencereview.com

?

 

[BadMan]

Audioquest carbon optical . I received it today . First impression soundstage is wider and deeper, bass and treble clearer . Bass is more impactful. Micro details much more easily detectable and decay of bass notes .piano is cleaner with absence of smearing while being hefty with nice fast decay . Clean and smooth . In comparison Audioquest pearl although very good , it is overall more fuzzy and less focused than carbon . If you don’t try carbon ever , Audioquest pearl could seem all you need. I could live with pearl but carbon wins easily. If I could quantify the difference is 5-10% better. Also preferable to qed performance coaxial , more natural and clean

do you prefer optical over coaxial, and if yes, why?

 

[steadyshot]

do you prefer optical over coaxial, and if yes, why?

If you employ a good optical cable you get both total galvanic isolation and low jitter and good bandwidth.Even if 24/192 would not work for my dac I wouldn’t care since the difference from 24/96 is trivial .The cable itself does not radiate to the equipment and other nearby cables and also is immune itself from other nearby emi/rfi that also can transfer to the dac .

So in my case I would not upgrade anything else. I found the sweet spot for me in my current setup.

 

[steadyshot]

Another free tweak . Run it at very low volume for 2 hours

CASCADE Free Burn-In Disc – Tara Labs – The Cable Technology Leader

taralabs.com

 

[BowsAndArrows]

If you employ a good optical cable you get both total galvanic isolation and low jitter and good bandwidth.Even if 24/192 would not work for my dac I wouldn’t care since the difference from 24/96 is trivial .The cable itself does not radiate to the equipment and other nearby cables and also is immune itself from other nearby emi/rfi that also can transfer to the dac .

So in my case I would not upgrade anything else. I found the sweet spot for me in my current setup.

+1 agree with this as well. but in my case my active speakers don't have coax in, and WiiM pro doesn't have USB-out, so it's the best option overall. i have experimented with Wiim Pro > coax > S/PDIF ipurifier > toslink > speakers vs toslink the whole chain (since i recieved my oyaide DST-75R V2 snake oil special cable!! ). and there isn't much difference, but i reckon with the coax acoustic recordings sound a touch more "organic". it is a subtle difference tho

also +1 for the tara labs free burn in CD it's great for whenever you make a new change in your system. "play it through every week until you don't notice a difference in characteristics" is what they recommend. i do play it every couple of weeks, cos i make a lot of changes

 

[BowsAndArrows]

Many choose to ignore the complexities of engineering sound reproduction devices because they have been commoditized in our society to a certain degree... and also, many forget that science often progresses by choosing a direction that was previously thought to be "wrong" and that dogmatic thinking is not scientific. what IS scientific is understanding the limitations of the methods at our disposal, and having an unbiased view when it comes to hypothesis testing. As george bernard shaw said “All great truths begin as blasphemies.” a famous example in audio is Naim and their complete 180 on power cables. they used to be against the whole thing, and now they have their own line of them. you could call this shameless money grabbing... but idk - the market would weed out this type of thing over time - it's not a sustainable business model to try and "fleece" your customers repeatedly over a long period of time. eventually people will catch on

I'm familiar with some of the tests mentioned in the links above. I particularly remember the stereophile one about amps quite clearly. If you read about the work they did - there are actually a lot of nuances in how you use tools like A/B testing to get to the "truth" in this case. Like in all of science. Some of the excerpts are quite eye-opening. Well worth a read. https://www.stereophile.com/features/113/index.html there were differences that were reproducible in a subset of the listeners. and many of the letters express very nuanced arguments.

Similarly in the goldensound video - he doesn't entirely dismiss the place that measurements have in the hobby - but the key is his understanding of the limitations of the tools we have. you have to listen to what he says, though - its not good enough to click away because you disagree with the title and thumbnail.

I actually think there is a lot more to the nebulous concept of 'SQ' than what we can measure. So I guess I disagree with @onlyoneme as well. I believe trained active listeners would be able to reliably hear differences between DACs and amps even in anechoic chambers, given enough time to get accustomed to the sound and being able to choose what songs/audio clips to A/B with (but not the sequence)....

I'm with @Matterhorn on this one. if you've actually spent time listening to different components like DACs in the same setup then differences are not even subtle in many cases. (i will caveat this by saying that if measurements are complete, and two components measure similarly, then they do also tend to sound similar) i'll try and get into these ideas more in my next snake oil update for now i'm just tryin to keep the peace and trying my best to encourage people to understand that hearing is a complex topic and that there is a lot we don't know about it

 

[steadyshot]

What is your system @bowsandarrows ?

 

[Steve Woodhouse]

Many choose to ignore the complexities of engineering sound reproduction devices because they have been commoditized in our society to a certain degree... and also, many forget that science often progresses by choosing a direction that was previously thought to be "wrong" and that dogmatic thinking is not scientific. what IS scientific is understanding the limitations of the methods at our disposal, and having an unbiased view when it comes to hypothesis testing. As george bernard shaw said “All great truths begin as blasphemies.” a famous example in audio is Naim and their complete 180 on power cables. they used to be against the whole thing, and now they have their own line of them. you could call this shameless money grabbing... but idk - the market would weed out this type of thing over time - it's not a sustainable business model to try and "fleece" your customers repeatedly over a long period of time. eventually people will catch on

I'm familiar with some of the tests mentioned in the links above. I particularly remember the stereophile one about amps quite clearly. If you read about the work they did - there are actually a lot of nuances in how you use tools like A/B testing to get to the "truth" in this case. Like in all of science. Some of the excerpts are quite eye-opening. Well worth a read. I'm familiar with some of the tests mentioned in the links above. I remember the sterophile one about amps quite clearly. If you read about the work they did - there are actually a lot of nuances in how you use tools like A/B testing to get to the "truth" in this case. Like in all of science. Some of the excerpts from the letters are quite eye-opening. Well worth a read. https://www.stereophile.com/features/113/index.html there were differences that were reproducible in a subset of the listeners. and many of the letters express very nuanced arguments.

Similarly in the goldensound video - he doesn't entirely dismiss the place that measurements have in the hobby - but the key is his understanding of the limitations of the tools we have. you have to listen to what he says, though - its not good enough to click away because you disagree with the title and thumbnail.

I actually think there is a lot more to the nebulous concept of 'SQ' than what we can measure. So I guess I disagree with @onlyoneme as well. I believe trained active listeners would be able to reliably hear differences between DACs and amps even in anechoic chambers, given enough time to get accustomed to the sound and being able to choose what songs/audio clips to A/B with (but not the sequence)....

I'm with @Matterhorn on this one. if you've actually spent time listening to different components like DACs in the same setup then differences are not even subtle in many cases. (i will caveat this by saying that if measurements are complete, and two components measure similarly, then they do also tend to sound similar) i'll try and get into these ideas more in my next snake oil update for now i'm just tryin to keep the peace and trying my best to encourage people to understand that hearing is a complex topic and that there is a lot we don't know about it

I don’t agree with everything you’ve said, but you’ve laid out your case in a logical, non-abusive way.

Cheers.

I’d remind everyone:

Matrix HiFi --> Blind testing high end full equipments

 

[BowsAndArrows]

What is your system @bowsandarrows ?

at the moment since i moved, i have a compact system because my listening room is small and i've optimised my setup for near-field listening... i have a WiiM pro>coax(Oyaide DST-75R V2)>ifi S/PDIF iPurifier>toslink (ludic orpheus optical)>vanatoo transparent zero+ > LFE out (QED reference 40 sub cable) > ruark rs2 sub.

i previously had a bluesound powernode (v2) setup with Q acoustics concept 20 speakers. but the vanatoo + sub sounded better to me and was cheaper + more convenient (less separate boxes etc) for me in my new place especially.

in the past (as a kid) dad was always into hi-fi and he basically always had sony/pioneer separates in his system

 

[Wiimer]

Sorry for the off-topic.
This is an amplifier from a company called "Ause" in Japan. (WATERFALL Power 502L)

WATERFALL Power 502L | 逢瀬

2021/10/13　サイズ表記の修正、サイズ参考写真をアップステレオパワーアンプ / 廉価モデル定価23万円＋税（税込 253000円）WATERFALL Power 500と同等の性能デザインWATERFALL Power 500で採用した内容と同等のnCore＋独自前段回路を搭載しています。上記製品と同等のクオリティを大幅に廉価に実現するのが目標の製品となります。また同じnCoreでもIntegratedで採用されている電源一体型のM

ause-audio.com

This is a power amplifier powered by a Hypex NC500, what do you think of the validity of what is described on this website?

The price is 230,000JPY(+10%TAX)/1,500USD.
Do you think it's worth the price?

Thank you.

 

[Mr Ee]

Sorry for the off-topic.
This is an amplifier from a company called "Ause" in Japan. (WATERFALL Power 502L)

WATERFALL Power 502L | 逢瀬

2021/10/13　サイズ表記の修正、サイズ参考写真をアップステレオパワーアンプ / 廉価モデル定価23万円＋税（税込 253000円）WATERFALL Power 500と同等の性能デザインWATERFALL Power 500で採用した内容と同等のnCore＋独自前段回路を搭載しています。上記製品と同等のクオリティを大幅に廉価に実現するのが目標の製品となります。また同じnCoreでもIntegratedで採用されている電源一体型のM

ause-audio.com

This is a power amplifier powered by a Hypex NC500, what do you think of the validity of what is described on this website?

The price is 23JPY(+10%TAX)/1,500USD.
Do you think it's worth the price?

Thank you.

Yeah... just get one!

 

[bherren]

Sorry for the off-topic.
This is an amplifier from a company called "Ause" in Japan. (WATERFALL Power 502L)

WATERFALL Power 502L | 逢瀬

2021/10/13　サイズ表記の修正、サイズ参考写真をアップステレオパワーアンプ / 廉価モデル定価23万円＋税（税込 253000円）WATERFALL Power 500と同等の性能デザインWATERFALL Power 500で採用した内容と同等のnCore＋独自前段回路を搭載しています。上記製品と同等のクオリティを大幅に廉価に実現するのが目標の製品となります。また同じnCoreでもIntegratedで採用されている電源一体型のM

ause-audio.com

This is a power amplifier powered by a Hypex NC500, what do you think of the validity of what is described on this website?

The price is 230,000JPY(+10%TAX)/1,500USD.
Do you think it's worth the price?

Thank you.

You're better off getting one of the many nCoreX ones around for similar prices or even cheaper (I'm very happy with my Apollon NCx500 personally). Provides they ship to .jp of course...

 

[waldo]

Sorry for the off-topic.
This is an amplifier from a company called "Ause" in Japan. (WATERFALL Power 502L)

WATERFALL Power 502L | 逢瀬

2021/10/13　サイズ表記の修正、サイズ参考写真をアップステレオパワーアンプ / 廉価モデル定価23万円＋税（税込 253000円）WATERFALL Power 500と同等の性能デザインWATERFALL Power 500で採用した内容と同等のnCore＋独自前段回路を搭載しています。上記製品と同等のクオリティを大幅に廉価に実現するのが目標の製品となります。また同じnCoreでもIntegratedで採用されている電源一体型のM

ause-audio.com

This is a power amplifier powered by a Hypex NC500, what do you think of the validity of what is described on this website?

The price is 230,000JPY(+10%TAX)/1,500USD.
Do you think it's worth the price?

Thank you.

Maybe the best way to answer your question is to use the service listed on their 貸出 page.
Ause apparently will loan these out free for one-week auditions. You'd only pay for shipping from/back to them.