Snake oil update! 🐍
- Thread starter BowsAndArrows
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Steve Woodhouse
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I think you’ve fallen into the trap of, if it’s something you agree with it’s a valid opinion vs if it’s something you disagree with it’s preaching.
Threads have not been closed solely due to my comments. If my comments were out of order, they’d be deleted or I’d be banned, and the thread allowed to continue.
Your post singularly fails to answer my point. Are objectivists to be silenced and subjectivists not?
Matterhorn
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There you go again. I'm not biting.
BowsAndArrows
Major Contributor
And then there are those that are infidels to both religions!
Haha, I really was trying to build a bridge with this thread guys, and get a few laughs like @hoohoohoo ngl...
But anyways imo there's no need for arbitrary borders between objectivist vs subjectivist thinking. Can't we use both and accept the limitations of each?!
(even if we disagree with the degree of the limitations!! 
)aLike for example - in room acoustic treatment: very few will argue with the fact that there are objective principles guiding the whole process and that the benefits are clear. But because rooms and systems are so variable, we still have to end up tuning rooms by ear with trial and error of placement of the various acoustic treatments - more of a subjective art. Cos even despite all we know and all the modeling we can perform beforehand - there are still unpredictable parts of the equation to getting a venue/listening room to sound "just right".
I agree with @Brantome + @Matterhorn . Let's keep things chill and open + try finding common ground wherever possible. Enough space for dissenting voices to exist but without it getting too spicy for the corporate overlords to ban any of us
(I'm gonna keep posting updates here until the mods tell me not to - I'm accepting prototype WiiM mini v2s as a bribe to stop, in case you were wondering!
)
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Please maintain a polite and respectful tone in our conversations in this thread. Your cooperation in this matter will be highly appreciated. Otherwise, if we feel like it's not going in that direction, we'll have to close this thread. Thank you.
Mike in NY
Major Contributor
Exactly, we've all lost track of the number of different straw man arguments being constructed there.
BowsAndArrows
Major Contributor
ok, so now that the dust has settled a bit, thought i'd pop in with an update... please don't shoot me, it's not a snake oil update 
(one of those is coming very soon, and i promise to anyone who cares it's gonna be a good one! )
more of just an expansion on stuff that keeps coming up in other threads but i don't wanna pollute them with my blasphemous ideas!
to those that are clearly in one church OR other (most people on these forums seem to be measurementphiles
), please look away, go "enjoy the music" or whatever you need to do to keep calm before reading this! 
(mods please don't ban me and @ WiiM team - the offer to shut me up with free prototype mini v2 or ultra is still on the table)
anyways, been catching up on scientific audiophile's youtube content (will refer to him as S|A from now on - very balanced and quite funny) and he's pointing out an issue that comes up a lot. many people on here seem to completely disregard my point when i refer to the "limitations of measurements" (or how we apply them).
in his videos on the WiiM amp and the Fosi audio za3 + v3 - S|A points out important measurements that many reviewers almost never perform (erin's audio corner does some like the pink noise test on amps) and the ways that manufacturers can "game the system" (does anyone remember the VW fiasco?!! ) by making sure that the products test well under "standard ideal testing conditions" that they know the popular reviewers are going to use. (check out his short video on the za3 if you want to see a great example)
for example many of these new amps can easily play a 1 KHz test tone at the rated SPL through the speakers as mentioned on the spec sheet, but when a complex signal is used like pink noise (or multitone tests, or actual music) then they are NOT able to meet the specs they claim. obviously this affects every manufacturer to some degree or another - but it's much more rampant in the lower end class D amps than it is in the old-school class A or class A/B ones for example. this is what andrew robinson meant when he says "the problem with measurements is that they tend to show you the best WORST-case scenario" (and sometimes only that) in his "head to head" video of the WiiM amp vs onkyo AVR from @D1N0 's interesting thread...
the reason i need to point this out is because issues such as this would probably be quite apparent if you listened to an amp like this closely enough in a practical and realistc listening environment! you would maybe notice the lack of dynamics at medium listening levels, and obviously the lack of volume when you try to crank it up... i mean shocking, right?!
you mean you actually need to listend to an audio reproduction device to evaluate it? haha!! 
(as a side note - i
DO NOT recommend listening to music loud (>75dB) for periods longer than a few minutes at a time WITH BREAKS!! acoustic damage that causes hearing loss is real, people - and i don't hear enough people talking about this tbh 
. it's worth pointing out much of these specific issues highlighted here might not apply to playing music at "normal" listening levels <70dB)
but anyways maybe these ideas can demonstrate the value of combining both listening and measurements when evaluating equipment, and trying to improve the application of both. and just to remind people that they are NOT mutually exclusive! after all - scientific thinkers must have an open enough mind to discover something new, right? all of this applies to snake oil stuff as well, by the way.
(one of those is coming very soon, and i promise to anyone who cares it's gonna be a good one! )more of just an expansion on stuff that keeps coming up in other threads but i don't wanna pollute them with my blasphemous ideas!
to those that are clearly in one church OR other (most people on these forums seem to be measurementphiles
), please look away, go "enjoy the music" or whatever you need to do to keep calm before reading this! (mods please don't ban me and @ WiiM team - the offer to shut me up with free prototype mini v2 or ultra is still on the table)anyways, been catching up on scientific audiophile's youtube content (will refer to him as S|A from now on - very balanced and quite funny) and he's pointing out an issue that comes up a lot. many people on here seem to completely disregard my point when i refer to the "limitations of measurements" (or how we apply them).
in his videos on the WiiM amp and the Fosi audio za3 + v3 - S|A points out important measurements that many reviewers almost never perform (erin's audio corner does some like the pink noise test on amps) and the ways that manufacturers can "game the system" (does anyone remember the VW fiasco?!!
) by making sure that the products test well under "standard ideal testing conditions" that they know the popular reviewers are going to use. (check out his short video on the za3 if you want to see a great example)for example many of these new amps can easily play a 1 KHz test tone at the rated SPL through the speakers as mentioned on the spec sheet, but when a complex signal is used like pink noise (or multitone tests, or actual music) then they are NOT able to meet the specs they claim. obviously this affects every manufacturer to some degree or another - but it's much more rampant in the lower end class D amps than it is in the old-school class A or class A/B ones for example. this is what andrew robinson meant when he says "the problem with measurements is that they tend to show you the best WORST-case scenario" (and sometimes only that) in his "head to head" video of the WiiM amp vs onkyo AVR from @D1N0 's interesting thread...
the reason i need to point this out is because issues such as this would probably be quite apparent if you listened to an amp like this closely enough in a practical and realistc listening environment! you would maybe notice the lack of dynamics at medium listening levels, and obviously the lack of volume when you try to crank it up... i mean shocking, right?!
you mean you actually need to listend to an audio reproduction device to evaluate it? haha!! (as a side note - i
DO NOT recommend listening to music loud (>75dB) for periods longer than a few minutes at a time WITH BREAKS!! acoustic damage that causes hearing loss is real, people - and i don't hear enough people talking about this tbh . it's worth pointing out much of these specific issues highlighted here might not apply to playing music at "normal" listening levels <70dB)but anyways maybe these ideas can demonstrate the value of combining both listening and measurements when evaluating equipment, and trying to improve the application of both. and just to remind people that they are NOT mutually exclusive! after all - scientific thinkers must have an open enough mind to discover something new, right? all of this applies to snake oil stuff as well, by the way.
Mr Ee
Major Contributor
It is Friday lunchtime there, right?
Have you had a nip or two of the snake juice at the pub?
Have you had a nip or two of the snake juice at the pub?
BowsAndArrows
Major Contributor
haha, i know right?It is Friday lunchtime there, right?
Have you had a nip or two of the snake juice at the pub?
got the afternoon off, so i'm enjoying a quick one before the weather (and my friends) betrays me!! i've got more time than sense today, that's for sure lmao
Let me quote myself:ok, so now that the dust has settled a bit, thought i'd pop in with an update... please don't shoot me, it's not a snake oil update
more of just an expansion on stuff that keeps coming up in other threads but i don't wanna pollute them with my blasphemous ideas!
to those that are clearly in one church OR other (most people on these forums seem to be measurementphiles
anyways, been catching up on scientific audiophile's youtube content (will refer to him as S|A from now on - very balanced and quite funny) and he's pointing out an issue that comes up a lot. many people on here seem to completely disregard my point when i refer to the "limitations of measurements" (or how we apply them).
in his videos on the WiiM amp and the Fosi audio za3 + v3 - S|A points out important measurements that many reviewers almost never perform (erin's audio corner does some like the pink noise test on amps) and the ways that manufacturers can "game the system" (does anyone remember the VW fiasco?!!
for example many of these new amps can easily play a 1 KHz test tone at the rated SPL through the speakers as mentioned on the spec sheet, but when a complex signal is used like pink noise (or multitone tests, or actual music) then they are NOT able to meet the specs they claim. obviously this affects every manufacturer to some degree or another - but it's much more rampant in the lower end class D amps than it is in the old-school class A or class A/B ones for example. this is what andrew robinson meant when he says "the problem with measurements is that they tend to show you the best WORST-case scenario" (and sometimes only that) in his "head to head" video of the WiiM amp vs onkyo AVR from @D1N0 's interesting thread...
the reason i need to point this out is because issues such as this would probably be quite apparent if you listened to an amp like this closely enough in a practical and realistc listening environment! you would maybe notice the lack of dynamics at medium listening levels, and obviously the lack of volume when you try to crank it up... i mean shocking, right?!
(as a side note - i
but anyways maybe these ideas can demonstrate the value of combining both listening and measurements when evaluating equipment, and trying to improve the application of both. and just to remind people that they are NOT mutually exclusive! after all - scientific thinkers must have an open enough mind to discover something new, right? all of this applies to snake oil stuff as well, by the way.
A multitone signal which consists of 226 tones at -0.9 dBFS RMS level produces 19.2 Vrms output signal, which means 92 W output power for 4 ohm load.
A single sine 1 kHz signal at -0.9 dBFS RMS level produces 20 Vrms output signal, which means 100 W output power for 4 ohm load.
92 W vs 100 W - 8 W difference.
steadyshot
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This is very serious and wiim (and other class d manufacturers) should respond - the guy says that power specs are met only with 1khz and with other signals it cannot even reach 1 watt power rating when fed with 2.1v signal and channel separation -the test indicated that content from the right channel sounded in the left channel- and the load dependency that indicated that frequency response changes with varying loads. So yes... not good. He tested it with analogue inputs.ok, so now that the dust has settled a bit, thought i'd pop in with an update... please don't shoot me, it's not a snake oil update
more of just an expansion on stuff that keeps coming up in other threads but i don't wanna pollute them with my blasphemous ideas!
to those that are clearly in one church OR other (most people on these forums seem to be measurementphiles
anyways, been catching up on scientific audiophile's youtube content (will refer to him as S|A from now on - very balanced and quite funny) and he's pointing out an issue that comes up a lot. many people on here seem to completely disregard my point when i refer to the "limitations of measurements" (or how we apply them).
in his videos on the WiiM amp and the Fosi audio za3 + v3 - S|A points out important measurements that many reviewers almost never perform (erin's audio corner does some like the pink noise test on amps) and the ways that manufacturers can "game the system" (does anyone remember the VW fiasco?!!
for example many of these new amps can easily play a 1 KHz test tone at the rated SPL through the speakers as mentioned on the spec sheet, but when a complex signal is used like pink noise (or multitone tests, or actual music) then they are NOT able to meet the specs they claim. obviously this affects every manufacturer to some degree or another - but it's much more rampant in the lower end class D amps than it is in the old-school class A or class A/B ones for example. this is what andrew robinson meant when he says "the problem with measurements is that they tend to show you the best WORST-case scenario" (and sometimes only that) in his "head to head" video of the WiiM amp vs onkyo AVR from @D1N0 's interesting thread...
the reason i need to point this out is because issues such as this would probably be quite apparent if you listened to an amp like this closely enough in a practical and realistc listening environment! you would maybe notice the lack of dynamics at medium listening levels, and obviously the lack of volume when you try to crank it up... i mean shocking, right?!
(as a side note - i
but anyways maybe these ideas can demonstrate the value of combining both listening and measurements when evaluating equipment, and trying to improve the application of both. and just to remind people that they are NOT mutually exclusive! after all - scientific thinkers must have an open enough mind to discover something new, right? all of this applies to snake oil stuff as well, by the way.
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Brantome
Moderator
Could the channel separation issue be resolved in firmware?
Steve Woodhouse
Major Contributor
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- Aug 11, 2023
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It is possible to solve channel desperation issues by wearing different coloured socks.
I tried a blind test, but it failed, because I couldn’t even tell if I’d managed to use socks of different colours.
I tried a blind test, but it failed, because I couldn’t even tell if I’d managed to use socks of different colours.
Brantome
Moderator
On a tangential note, coloured socks remind me of being on an interview panel and the candidate being asked to describe something about himself that may not be immediately obvious to others. He said that he always wore odd coloured socks and then proceeded to take his shoes off and put his feet on the table to prove it. He didn’t get the job…
steadyshot
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Audioquest carbon optical . I received it today . First impression soundstage is wider and deeper, bass and treble clearer . Bass is more impactful. Micro details much more easily detectable and decay of bass notes .piano is cleaner with absence of smearing while being hefty with nice fast decay . Clean and smooth . In comparison Audioquest pearl although very good , it is overall more fuzzy and less focused than carbon . If you don’t try carbon ever , Audioquest pearl could seem all you need. I could live with pearl but carbon wins easily. If I could quantify the difference is 5-10% better. Also preferable to qed performance coaxial , more natural and clean
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steadyshot
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I know… Wiim test signal for 24/192 does not start with a crackle now . In specs officially 24/192 is not supported by the internal dac for optical . Now it plays smoothly. Maybe they are not frauds for releasing these higher end models . Maybe there is a reason other than pure scam … Maybe…
BowsAndArrows
Major Contributor
wow, that's crazy - you noticed the same thing that i did!! the crackle sounds at the start of playback also went away when i switched to my glass ludic orpheus toslink cable.
i've got another snake oil update coming soon. but i'm just listening a bit more before i drop the full update. allowing things to burn in and all that jazz
some of the stuff is scandalous - @onlyoneme might have a heart attack
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This reminds me of the argument about AVR measurements in the mid to late 2000's between discrete and integrated amplifier power measurements. As I remember Denon used to use discrete amplifier stages and would give their output as xxW RMS 'all channels driven' and Onkyo using integrated amp stage would give their output as yyW RMS 'one channel driven'. Yy was bigger than xx but obviously if the Onkyo had all channels drive it could not hit it's Yy value. Some people got very exercised about it.ok, so now that the dust has settled a bit, thought i'd pop in with an update... please don't shoot me, it's not a snake oil update
more of just an expansion on stuff that keeps coming up in other threads but i don't wanna pollute them with my blasphemous ideas!
to those that are clearly in one church OR other (most people on these forums seem to be measurementphiles
anyways, been catching up on scientific audiophile's youtube content (will refer to him as S|A from now on - very balanced and quite funny) and he's pointing out an issue that comes up a lot. many people on here seem to completely disregard my point when i refer to the "limitations of measurements" (or how we apply them).
in his videos on the WiiM amp and the Fosi audio za3 + v3 - S|A points out important measurements that many reviewers almost never perform (erin's audio corner does some like the pink noise test on amps) and the ways that manufacturers can "game the system" (does anyone remember the VW fiasco?!!
for example many of these new amps can easily play a 1 KHz test tone at the rated SPL through the speakers as mentioned on the spec sheet, but when a complex signal is used like pink noise (or multitone tests, or actual music) then they are NOT able to meet the specs they claim. obviously this affects every manufacturer to some degree or another - but it's much more rampant in the lower end class D amps than it is in the old-school class A or class A/B ones for example. this is what andrew robinson meant when he says "the problem with measurements is that they tend to show you the best WORST-case scenario" (and sometimes only that) in his "head to head" video of the WiiM amp vs onkyo AVR from @D1N0 's interesting thread...
the reason i need to point this out is because issues such as this would probably be quite apparent if you listened to an amp like this closely enough in a practical and realistc listening environment! you would maybe notice the lack of dynamics at medium listening levels, and obviously the lack of volume when you try to crank it up... i mean shocking, right?!
(as a side note - i
but anyways maybe these ideas can demonstrate the value of combining both listening and measurements when evaluating equipment, and trying to improve the application of both. and just to remind people that they are NOT mutually exclusive! after all - scientific thinkers must have an open enough mind to discover something new, right? all of this applies to snake oil stuff as well, by the way.
The funny thing was that in your living room you would go deaf if you went anywhere near utilising that kind of power whatever the tech or measurement standard used. When they were little my kids made the mistake of turning up my Denon AVR 1911 to '0'. Frightened the life out of them
I think as long as similar tech uses the same standard and you know the limitations of that standard you have a way of comparing stuff.
It's also no secret that class D amps drop off a cliff from an overall performance wise at their highest power.
No worries, I do not participate in snake oil soap operassome of the stuff is scandalous - @onlyoneme might have a heart attack
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