The point is to let people have their own ideas to exchange with each other. When someone comes along and starts preaching their opinions as gospel it comes across in a condescending way. That has the effect of putting people off leading to angry posts. I assume that you've seen threads closed down. This is not normal.
There you go again. I'm not biting.I think you’ve fallen into the trap of, if it’s something you agree with it’s a valid opinion vs if it’s something you disagree with it’s preaching.
Threads have not been closed solely due to my comments. If my comments were out of order, they’d be deleted or I’d be banned, and the thread allowed to continue.
Your post singularly fails to answer my point. Are objectivists to be silenced and subjectivists not?
And then there are those that are infidels to both religions!There is The Gospel of Golden Ears and Damned Measurements, and another one of Blessed Measurements and Fallen Subjectivists.
There you go again. I'm not biting.
haha, i know right?It is Friday lunchtime there, right?
Have you had a nip or two of the snake juice at the pub?
Let me quote myself:ok, so now that the dust has settled a bit, thought i'd pop in with an update... please don't shoot me, it's not a snake oil update (one of those is coming very soon, and i promise to anyone who cares it's gonna be a good one! )
more of just an expansion on stuff that keeps coming up in other threads but i don't wanna pollute them with my blasphemous ideas!
to those that are clearly in one church OR other (most people on these forums seem to be measurementphiles ), please look away, go "enjoy the music" or whatever you need to do to keep calm before reading this! (mods please don't ban me and @ WiiM team - the offer to shut me up with free prototype mini v2 or ultra is still on the table)
anyways, been catching up on scientific audiophile's youtube content (will refer to him as S|A from now on - very balanced and quite funny) and he's pointing out an issue that comes up a lot. many people on here seem to completely disregard my point when i refer to the "limitations of measurements" (or how we apply them).
in his videos on the WiiM amp and the Fosi audio za3 + v3 - S|A points out important measurements that many reviewers almost never perform (erin's audio corner does some like the pink noise test on amps) and the ways that manufacturers can "game the system" (does anyone remember the VW fiasco?!! ) by making sure that the products test well under "standard ideal testing conditions" that they know the popular reviewers are going to use. (check out his short video on the za3 if you want to see a great example)
for example many of these new amps can easily play a 1 KHz test tone at the rated SPL through the speakers as mentioned on the spec sheet, but when a complex signal is used like pink noise (or multitone tests, or actual music) then they are NOT able to meet the specs they claim. obviously this affects every manufacturer to some degree or another - but it's much more rampant in the lower end class D amps than it is in the old-school class A or class A/B ones for example. this is what andrew robinson meant when he says "the problem with measurements is that they tend to show you the best WORST-case scenario" (and sometimes only that) in his "head to head" video of the WiiM amp vs onkyo AVR from @D1N0 's interesting thread...
the reason i need to point this out is because issues such as this would probably be quite apparent if you listened to an amp like this closely enough in a practical and realistc listening environment! you would maybe notice the lack of dynamics at medium listening levels, and obviously the lack of volume when you try to crank it up... i mean shocking, right?! you mean you actually need to listend to an audio reproduction device to evaluate it? haha!!
(as a side note - i DO NOT recommend listening to music loud (>75dB) for periods longer than a few minutes at a time WITH BREAKS!! acoustic damage that causes hearing loss is real, people - and i don't hear enough people talking about this tbh . it's worth pointing out much of these specific issues highlighted here might not apply to playing music at "normal" listening levels <70dB)
but anyways maybe these ideas can demonstrate the value of combining both listening and measurements when evaluating equipment, and trying to improve the application of both. and just to remind people that they are NOT mutually exclusive! after all - scientific thinkers must have an open enough mind to discover something new, right? all of this applies to snake oil stuff as well, by the way.
This is very serious and wiim (and other class d manufacturers) should respond - the guy says that power specs are met only with 1khz and with other signals it cannot even reach 1 watt power rating when fed with 2.1v signal and channel separation -the test indicated that content from the right channel sounded in the left channel- and the load dependency that indicated that frequency response changes with varying loads. So yes... not good. He tested it with analogue inputs.ok, so now that the dust has settled a bit, thought i'd pop in with an update... please don't shoot me, it's not a snake oil update (one of those is coming very soon, and i promise to anyone who cares it's gonna be a good one! )
more of just an expansion on stuff that keeps coming up in other threads but i don't wanna pollute them with my blasphemous ideas!
to those that are clearly in one church OR other (most people on these forums seem to be measurementphiles ), please look away, go "enjoy the music" or whatever you need to do to keep calm before reading this! (mods please don't ban me and @ WiiM team - the offer to shut me up with free prototype mini v2 or ultra is still on the table)
anyways, been catching up on scientific audiophile's youtube content (will refer to him as S|A from now on - very balanced and quite funny) and he's pointing out an issue that comes up a lot. many people on here seem to completely disregard my point when i refer to the "limitations of measurements" (or how we apply them).
in his videos on the WiiM amp and the Fosi audio za3 + v3 - S|A points out important measurements that many reviewers almost never perform (erin's audio corner does some like the pink noise test on amps) and the ways that manufacturers can "game the system" (does anyone remember the VW fiasco?!! ) by making sure that the products test well under "standard ideal testing conditions" that they know the popular reviewers are going to use. (check out his short video on the za3 if you want to see a great example)
for example many of these new amps can easily play a 1 KHz test tone at the rated SPL through the speakers as mentioned on the spec sheet, but when a complex signal is used like pink noise (or multitone tests, or actual music) then they are NOT able to meet the specs they claim. obviously this affects every manufacturer to some degree or another - but it's much more rampant in the lower end class D amps than it is in the old-school class A or class A/B ones for example. this is what andrew robinson meant when he says "the problem with measurements is that they tend to show you the best WORST-case scenario" (and sometimes only that) in his "head to head" video of the WiiM amp vs onkyo AVR from @D1N0 's interesting thread...
the reason i need to point this out is because issues such as this would probably be quite apparent if you listened to an amp like this closely enough in a practical and realistc listening environment! you would maybe notice the lack of dynamics at medium listening levels, and obviously the lack of volume when you try to crank it up... i mean shocking, right?! you mean you actually need to listend to an audio reproduction device to evaluate it? haha!!
(as a side note - i DO NOT recommend listening to music loud (>75dB) for periods longer than a few minutes at a time WITH BREAKS!! acoustic damage that causes hearing loss is real, people - and i don't hear enough people talking about this tbh . it's worth pointing out much of these specific issues highlighted here might not apply to playing music at "normal" listening levels <70dB)
but anyways maybe these ideas can demonstrate the value of combining both listening and measurements when evaluating equipment, and trying to improve the application of both. and just to remind people that they are NOT mutually exclusive! after all - scientific thinkers must have an open enough mind to discover something new, right? all of this applies to snake oil stuff as well, by the way.
Why oh why...
wow, that's crazy - you noticed the same thing that i did!! the crackle sounds at the start of playback also went away when i switched to my glass ludic orpheus toslink cable.I know… Wiim test signal for 24/192 does not start with a crackle now . In specs officially 24/192 is not supported by the internal dac for optical . Now it plays smoothly. Maybe they are not frauds for releasing these higher end models . Maybe there is a reason other than pure scam … Maybe…
This reminds me of the argument about AVR measurements in the mid to late 2000's between discrete and integrated amplifier power measurements. As I remember Denon used to use discrete amplifier stages and would give their output as xxW RMS 'all channels driven' and Onkyo using integrated amp stage would give their output as yyW RMS 'one channel driven'. Yy was bigger than xx but obviously if the Onkyo had all channels drive it could not hit it's Yy value. Some people got very exercised about it.ok, so now that the dust has settled a bit, thought i'd pop in with an update... please don't shoot me, it's not a snake oil update (one of those is coming very soon, and i promise to anyone who cares it's gonna be a good one! )
more of just an expansion on stuff that keeps coming up in other threads but i don't wanna pollute them with my blasphemous ideas!
to those that are clearly in one church OR other (most people on these forums seem to be measurementphiles ), please look away, go "enjoy the music" or whatever you need to do to keep calm before reading this! (mods please don't ban me and @ WiiM team - the offer to shut me up with free prototype mini v2 or ultra is still on the table)
anyways, been catching up on scientific audiophile's youtube content (will refer to him as S|A from now on - very balanced and quite funny) and he's pointing out an issue that comes up a lot. many people on here seem to completely disregard my point when i refer to the "limitations of measurements" (or how we apply them).
in his videos on the WiiM amp and the Fosi audio za3 + v3 - S|A points out important measurements that many reviewers almost never perform (erin's audio corner does some like the pink noise test on amps) and the ways that manufacturers can "game the system" (does anyone remember the VW fiasco?!! ) by making sure that the products test well under "standard ideal testing conditions" that they know the popular reviewers are going to use. (check out his short video on the za3 if you want to see a great example)
for example many of these new amps can easily play a 1 KHz test tone at the rated SPL through the speakers as mentioned on the spec sheet, but when a complex signal is used like pink noise (or multitone tests, or actual music) then they are NOT able to meet the specs they claim. obviously this affects every manufacturer to some degree or another - but it's much more rampant in the lower end class D amps than it is in the old-school class A or class A/B ones for example. this is what andrew robinson meant when he says "the problem with measurements is that they tend to show you the best WORST-case scenario" (and sometimes only that) in his "head to head" video of the WiiM amp vs onkyo AVR from @D1N0 's interesting thread...
the reason i need to point this out is because issues such as this would probably be quite apparent if you listened to an amp like this closely enough in a practical and realistc listening environment! you would maybe notice the lack of dynamics at medium listening levels, and obviously the lack of volume when you try to crank it up... i mean shocking, right?! you mean you actually need to listend to an audio reproduction device to evaluate it? haha!!
(as a side note - i DO NOT recommend listening to music loud (>75dB) for periods longer than a few minutes at a time WITH BREAKS!! acoustic damage that causes hearing loss is real, people - and i don't hear enough people talking about this tbh . it's worth pointing out much of these specific issues highlighted here might not apply to playing music at "normal" listening levels <70dB)
but anyways maybe these ideas can demonstrate the value of combining both listening and measurements when evaluating equipment, and trying to improve the application of both. and just to remind people that they are NOT mutually exclusive! after all - scientific thinkers must have an open enough mind to discover something new, right? all of this applies to snake oil stuff as well, by the way.
No worries, I do not participate in snake oil soap operassome of the stuff is scandalous - @onlyoneme might have a heart attack