Adding headphone amp

[FerengiROA]

Looking for clarity on this. My system is as follows:

1. Wiim Pro
2. Schitt Modi 3+ DAC
3. Onkyo TX-NR6050 AVR

I haven't bought a headphone amp, yet. Still researching.

My plan is to add a headphone amp between my Wiim Pro and AVR. I would use Optical out from the Wiim to my AVR optical input. For non-headphone listening, I am using Coax out from the Wiim to the DACs' Coax input. Then, using my Zone 2 analog output to the analog in on a headphone amp. Obviously, I would bypass the Schiit DAC and rely on the DAC in my AVR.
I could then use Zone 2 for the headphones while still being able to adjust the volume using the AVRs remote..This is necessary as I am listening about 8' away from where the headphone amp needs to be located.

Does this plan seem logical? My headphones are Beyerdynamic DT770 Pro/250 ohm and I feel they would benefit from an external amp.

Thanks for any advice you may have.

 

[Mr Ee]

So, a few questions / food for thought...

"For non-headphone listening, I am using Coax out from the Wiim to the DACs' Coax input"
Where does the Modi analog out go? Eventually to speakers, but to a stereo amp rather than the Onkyo avr?

"I would bypass the Schiit DAC and rely on the DAC in my AVR."
Sort of related to the first question - what is the modi doing differently / better than the avr dac?

"Then, using my Zone 2 analog output"
Can this only be done from a digital input into the avr?
Comes back to the use of the modi - if connected to the avr then is there a line out on the avr that could go to a headphone amp?
I must admit, my only experience of zone 1 and zone 2 on amps is for different pairs of speakers on a stereo amp - I'm unsure how this relates to a 7.2 avr!

Budget.
You are, naturally, trying to slot a headphone amp into your current setup.
How about a different approach?
e.g. a new dac/headphone amp, whether a single unit such as a buson playmate a regular here has (remote control?), or separates such as the smsl su9 /sh9 I myself have. Yes, this could make the modi obsolete, and yes, there are cheaper options than the two examples!
It could be set up such that the wiim optical goes to it, and none of your other equipment is involved / downstream from it.
One benefit I get from my dac is that both the analog outs (xlr and rca) are active at the same time, so one goes to the headphone amp and the other goes to a normal amp with speakers. i.e. I don't need to change the wiim output (only one active at a time, unfortunately) to change the target, just turn on whichever amp I need. In this situation, such a setup might replace your modi.

 

[FerengiROA]

Thanks for the detailed reply.

"Where does the Modi analog out go? Eventually to speakers, but to a stereo amp rather than the Onkyo avr?". MODI analog out goes to AVR.


"I would bypass the Schiit DAC and rely on the DAC in my AVR."
Sort of related to the first question - what is the modi doing differently / better than the avr dac?". Honestly, I feel that I hear a small improvement in clarity between the 2. However, I have not tried to volume match between the 2 and the "improvement" could be due to a slighter louder output. Or, simply because I expect to hear a difference.

"Comes back to the use of the modi - if connected to the avr then is there a line out on the avr that could go to a headphone amp?". This AVR unfortunately doesn't have analog out other than Zone 2 which was why I was curious if this was feasible.


I was also thinking about your last point regarding a combo DAC/HP amp or even dumping the DAC altogether. Need to really listen to it more closely to see if the improvement is real or perceived. The Schiit was cheap enough if I sold it or just held onto it for a future need so I'm not concerned about a loss, money-wiae. However, even if I were to remove the MODI, I still need to implement a headphone amp into the mix. I guess I should also post this on my AVRs' forum, as well.

You've given me some excellent info to consider. Really appreciate it.

 

[Seattle Techie]

If you feel the Schiit Modi sounds better than the internal dac on your Onkyo, then by all means stick with it. I do like the sound from the Modi, but one issue I found with the Modi is that there's a pop when you sample rates change to 192khz when thg track changes. Updates from WiiM haven't resolved, more of an issue with Schiit, but also not an issue if you're not playing a lot of hi-res at 192Khz. If you do decide to use the internal dac on your onkyo, do note that your AVR only goes up to 96Khz when using the coaxial or optical inputs.

I am curious given your Onkyo has a built in headphone amp, why you're looking to add a separate. Sounds like perhaps you want to bypass the Onkyo when you use your headphones. There are a number of headphone amps with built in dacs or if you like Schiit, you can always add the matching Magni to your Modi. As long as your headphone amp has a RCA out, you can then feed to your Onkyo.

 

[Mr Ee]

I just watched a video on zone 2 for your receiver.
It said "...source must be connected via analog connections".

 

[FerengiROA]

I just watched a video on zone 2 for your receiver.
It said "...source must be connected via analog connections".

Thanks for that. I just started researching this earlier today. I should have RTM, as well.

 

[FerengiROA]

If you feel the Schiit Modi sounds better than the internal dac on your Onkyo, then by all means stick with it. I do like the sound from the Modi, but one issue I found with the Modi is that there's a pop when you sample rates change to 192khz when thg track changes. Updates from WiiM haven't resolved, more of an issue with Schiit, but also not an issue if you're not playing a lot of hi-res at 192Khz. If you do decide to use the internal dac on your onkyo, do note that your AVR only goes up to 96Khz when using the coaxial or optical inputs.

I am curious given your Onkyo has a built in headphone amp, why you're looking to add a separate. Sounds like perhaps you want to bypass the Onkyo when you use your headphones. There are a number of headphone amps with built in dacs or if you like Schiit, you can always add the matching Magni to your Modi. As long as your headphone amp has a RCA out, you can then feed to your Onkyo.

I also dealt with the pop between tracks of different frequencies. I reached out to Schitt and they confirmed that the DAC uses a muting relay which is causing the pop. Their tech says that is the relay doing its job, FWIW. You probably know the only way to eliminate the pop is to restrict the Wiim to 16/44.1 resolution.

Main reason I want to add a headphone amp is to see if there is a benefit over the Onkyos' HP amp. Read a few articles about the skimping on most AVRs HP sections and am curious if the external amps are any better.

 

[FerengiROA]

"If you do decide to use the internal dac on your onkyo, do note that your AVR only goes up to 96Khz when using the coaxial or optical inputs."

I may be misunderstanding this. I checked my manual as I can't find which DAC chip this AVR uses online. The manual states that files are supported up to 24/192. WAV, FLAC, etc. Admittedly, it's well-known to Onkyo owners that their manuals can be vague in a lot of areas.

 

[Mr Ee]

"If you do decide to use the internal dac on your onkyo, do note that your AVR only goes up to 96Khz when using the coaxial or optical inputs."

I may be misunderstanding this. I checked my manual as I can't find which DAC chip this AVR uses online. The manual states that files are supported up to 24/192. WAV, FLAC, etc. Admittedly, it's well-known to Onkyo owners that their manuals can be vague in a lot of areas.

Easy to test - plug the wiim into the avr and play the test tones at the various frequencies.

 

[FerengiROA]

Easy to test - plug the wiim into the avr and play the test tones at the various frequencies.

Oh, man, I completely forgot about that.

Getting old sucks

 

[FerengiROA]

Good call...Confirmed 24/192 tones through AVR on both Coax and Optical on the Wiim.

Using an analog input on my AVR from DAC analog out.

 

[Seattle Techie]

"If you do decide to use the internal dac on your onkyo, do note that your AVR only goes up to 96Khz when using the coaxial or optical inputs."

I may be misunderstanding this. I checked my manual as I can't find which DAC chip this AVR uses online. The manual states that files are supported up to 24/192. WAV, FLAC, etc. Admittedly, it's well-known to Onkyo owners that their manuals can be vague in a lot of areas.

Onkyo makes it hard to find info on dac. I have an older AVR that used an AKM chip, but I know they had to make changes after AKM had a factory fire, so only way to know is probably to contact their support. My dac supports 24/192 but only on hdmi and I think via ethernet. As Mr Ee notes, plugging in is easiest way to test.

 

[Mr Ee]

Good call...Confirmed 24/192 tones through AVR on both Coax and Optical on the Wiim.

Using an analog input on my AVR from DAC analog out.

So... you went from wiim to modi to avr, and 192 worked?
To be expected, as the modi supports 192.

Or did you plug the wiim digital outs into the avr digital ins, and 192 still worked?
Or... maybe this is irrelevant if you end up using zone 2 as it seems that needs an analog input, simplifying the chain as it's one wiim output, one modi input, one avr input, and then just toggling zone 2 usage via the avr.

Guess you now just need to find someone / a dealer to borrow a HPA from to see if it's any different.

 

[FerengiROA]

So... you went from wiim to modi to avr, and 192 worked?
To be expected, as the modi supports 192.

Or did you plug the wiim digital outs into the avr digital ins, and 192 still worked?
Or... maybe this is irrelevant if you end up using zone 2 as it seems that needs an analog input, simplifying the chain as it's one wiim output, one modi input, one avr input, and then just toggling zone 2 usage via the avr.

Guess you now just need to find someone / a dealer to borrow a HPA from to see if it's any different.

Yes to both of your questions. I had 24/192 before I bought the DAC a week after I got the Wiim.

I'm in the US so finding a retailer that will let me trial a HPA at home may be tricky. Of course, I could return it if it doesn't work out but I don't think that's fair to the retailer. Barring that, I can order factory-direct or even Amazon and try it that way after calling their tech support depts.

Thanks for all of your help.

Regardless of the outcome, the Wiim Pro has solved many issues for me and has been rock-solid.

 

[Achim1811]

As a headphone obsessed I would, if one's budget allows it, recommend a dac/hpa with a very good headphone section. Most of the headphone sections in integrated or multichannel amps are only kind of a gimmick. No specialized work for headphones is executed, only a turn in the speakers path. Also most of the headphone sections in this chinois dacs are kind of an alibi, not more than a simple jack socket in the signal path. If your headphone usage is only low and not specific it might be already fine.
If you want do dive deeper a look to companies like Pro-Ject, Cambridge or Burson will be a good starting point. And if you like your existing amp with its sound and this amp has a tape or pre-out a dedicated headphone amp could be your choice.

 

[Mr Ee]

As a headphone obsessed I would, if one's budget allows it, recommend a dac/hpa with a very good headphone section. Most of the headphone sections in integrated or multichannel amps are only kind of a gimmick. No specialized work for headphones is executed, only a turn in the speakers path. Also most of the headphone sections in this chinois dacs are kind of an alibi, not more than a simple jack socket in the signal path. If your headphone usage is only low and not specific it might be already fine.
If you want do dive deeper a look to companies like Pro-Ject, Cambridge or Burson will be a good starting point. And if you like your existing amp with its sound and this amp has a tape or pre-out a dedicated headphone amp could be your choice.

So... you'll be getting a new playmate (pun intended) soon then?

 

[FerengiROA]

As a headphone obsessed I would, if one's budget allows it, recommend a dac/hpa with a very good headphone section. Most of the headphone sections in integrated or multichannel amps are only kind of a gimmick. No specialized work for headphones is executed, only a turn in the speakers path. Also most of the headphone sections in this chinois dacs are kind of an alibi, not more than a simple jack socket in the signal path. If your headphone usage is only low and not specific it might be already fine.
If you want do dive deeper a look to companies like Pro-Ject, Cambridge or Burson will be a good starting point. And if you like your existing amp with its sound and this amp has a tape or pre-out a dedicated headphone amp could be your choice.

I was reading about the Pro-Ject S2 as I am doing my research. My price range is under $250 so the Burson would be excluded, unfortunately. My 'phones are BD DT770 Pro, 250 ohm, so not high-end but they have served me well for about 5 years now.
There are lots of choices in my budget so I have some more reading to do.
Thanks for the reply.

 

[Achim1811]

So... you'll be getting a new playmate (pun intended) soon then?

I am to old to run two playmates

 

[Mr Ee]

Yes to both of your questions. I had 24/192 before I bought the DAC a week after I got the Wiim.

I'm in the US so finding a retailer that will let me trial a HPA at home may be tricky. Of course, I could return it if it doesn't work out but I don't think that's fair to the retailer. Barring that, I can order factory-direct or even Amazon and try it that way after calling their tech support depts.

Thanks for all of your help.

Regardless of the outcome, the Wiim Pro has solved many issues for me and has been rock-solid.

Or take the avr to a dealer....
I took my smsl stack to a dealer when I was thinking of upgrading my headphone setup.
Sorry, @Achim1811, I tried some Burson products but prefered my cheaper smsl stack!

 

[Achim1811]

@Mr Ee
No sorry needed, it is all about personal taste. And music!