Wiim Mini and External DAC Vs Pro Plus

[Steve Woodhouse]

Streaming SQ always falls short for me, despite the possibly plausible theory that it’s all ones and zeros.

My Marantz SACD player has a great DAC, or rather it has a sound I really like. The Arcam DAC is a stop gap, until I decide on something more hopefully accomplished soon.

Streaming from Apple, Qobuz or Tidal - from past experience - has revealed some comparative difference, but none have been as satisfying as CD or SACD playback, leastways in my system.

I’m demo-ing two Naim streamers next week, and that may or may not change my view. Will see.

Generally and experientially, I’m of the school of thought, that thinks it’s the room, speakers and amps (in that order) that are the biggest influence on SQ outcome regardless of the actual format/method of delivery.

Marantz SACD player? Great DAC, you say?

Was it their £7.5k flagship model?

Marantz SA-10 Review (SACD Player & DAC)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Marantz SACD player and USB balanced DAC. It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $7,499. The industrial design is good although usability is poor with super tiny fonts for various settings (e.g. filter number top left). Disc tray opens...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[alpha_zulu]

Streaming from Apple, Qobuz or Tidal - from past experience - has revealed some comparative difference, but none have been as satisfying as CD or SACD playback, leastways in my system.

How do you justify that for yourself? What are the reasons from your point of view?

 

[Jefferson Hoëck]

Marantz SACD player? Great DAC, you say?

Was it their £7.5k flagship model?

Marantz SA-10 Review (SACD Player & DAC)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Marantz SACD player and USB balanced DAC. It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $7,499. The industrial design is good although usability is poor with super tiny fonts for various settings (e.g. filter number top left). Disc tray opens...

audiosciencereview.com

Ha! No, alas not that one. It’s a Marantz SA8005.

 

[Jefferson Hoëck]

How do you justify that for yourself? What are the reasons from your point of view?

I don’t know exactly, other than my ears tell me that’s the case.

As said above, I think my CD playback tech has always been superior to my streaming kit. Superior in the sense of not just the DAC chip, which of itself isn’t a sole determinant of better sonics, but in other factors such as power supplies, output stages and noise/vibration reduction. As mentioned, I’m about to demo two Naim streamers this week and they are very well engineered and have an impressive array of components. On par at the very least with my CDP, at least on paper.

Need my ears in play though to actually listen, and not just look at a list of specs!

Closest I’ve come to “beating” CD was when I had an Innuos Zenith MK3 (though it was more the server with ripped CD than the in built streamer).

 

[bherren]

Streaming SQ always falls short for me, despite the possibly plausible theory that it’s all ones and zeros.

My Marantz SACD player has a great DAC, or rather it has a sound I really like. The Arcam DAC is a stop gap, until I decide on something more hopefully accomplished soon.

Streaming from Apple, Qobuz or Tidal - from past experience - has revealed some comparative difference, but none have been as satisfying as CD or SACD playback, leastways in my system.

I’m demo-ing two Naim streamers next week, and that may or may not change my view. Will see.

Generally and experientially, I’m of the school of thought, that thinks it’s the room, speakers and amps (in that order) that are the biggest influence on SQ outcome regardless of the actual format/method of delivery.

The streams coming out of Tidal or Qobuz are *at least* as good as a CD and often better. This is not a *theory* here... If you chose the same piece of music, preferably originating from the same master , what you get in Streaming should be at least as good. In my experience it's better than CDs in most case and I have a good CD player.

What might be happening is either:

* You are used to the specific sound of your CD player and 'prefer' that, regardless of wether it's a more accurate reproduction or not

* Your CD player has a better DAC. I note that you tried a Pro and not a Pro Plus, so good but not the best DAC in the WiiM range. I don't know anything about your Arcam DAC. One thing you could experiment with to test that theory is plug your CD player digital output (if it has a compatible one) into your DAC and see what that sounds like.

* You don't have some settings right in the WiiM... Check your max digital resolution in the WiiM settings, check your Tidal settings etc... Also try fixed output volume in the WiiM with no EQ (bit perfect), use the volume control downstream (DAC or amp).

 

[Jefferson Hoëck]

The streams coming out of Tidal or Qobuz are *at least* as good as a CD and often better. This is not a *theory* here... If you chose the same piece of music, preferably originating from the same master , what you get in Streaming should be at least as good. In my experience it's better than CDs in most case and I have a good CD player.

What might be happening is either:

* You are used to the specific sound of your CD player and 'prefer' that, regardless of wether it's a more accurate reproduction or not

* Your CD player has a better DAC. I note that you tried a Pro and not a Pro Plus, so good but not the best DAC in the WiiM range. I don't know anything about your Arcam DAC. One thing you could experiment with to test that theory is plug your CD player digital output (if it has a compatible one) into your DAC and see what that sounds like.

* You don't have some settings right in the WiiM... Check your max digital resolution in the WiiM settings, check your Tidal settings etc... Also try fixed output volume in the WiiM with no EQ (bit perfect), use the volume control downstream (DAC or amp).

Yes, I have tried my CD player as a transport into the external DAC, and I prefer and would say the CD players own DAC is better.

Regarding hi-res vs CD. It’s still only numerically not empirically better, and although I have heard some great hi-res music (on SACD, DVD-a & Qobuz/Tidal streams),
I think it’s the mastering of music that matters most.
In other words, a well mastered track in 44/16 can often sound better than equivalent 24/192 or 96, all dependent on the actual mastering skills not just the numerics.

Also, I wish I’d gone for the Pro Plus, just to satisfy my curiosity. Might still do that, before or during my upcoming Naim demos.

Thanks for your insights too, about settings. Possibly something there that I didn’t maximise.

 

[BowsAndArrows]

How do you justify that for yourself? What are the reasons from your point of view?

there is also a school of thought (rubbished by many) that noise in the digital signal pathway has an influence on the performance of a given system. alpha-audio and the sound of ethernet have done some good work in this area... they think that common mode interference in the digital signal pathway can cause audible differences...

i'm with @Jefferson Hoëck on this one. mastering is the main reason for differences between media - imo especially the vinyl vs digital debate (and dynamic range has a lot to do with it). i can also hear differences between CD vs streaming. Until recently i actually felt that CD>streaming. but since my efforts to optimise my streaming system - i now prefer it to CD.

i can also hear differences between streamers/digital transports. that may sound crazy to some, but it seems (despite my presuppositions) to be a reliable and consistent finding that i've begun to accept. i guess after enough experiences it's hard to keep denying my senses

 

[bherren]

there is also a school of thought (rubbished by many) that noise in the digital signal pathway has an influence on the performance of a given system. alpha-audio and the sound of ethernet have done some good work in this area... they think that common mode interference in the digital signal pathway can cause audible differences...

i'm with @Jefferson Hoëck on this one. mastering is the main reason for differences between media - imo especially the vinyl vs digital debate (and dynamic range has a lot to do with it). i can also hear differences between CD vs streaming. Until recently i actually felt that CD>streaming. but since my efforts to optimise my streaming system - i now prefer it to CD.

i can also hear differences between streamers/digital transports. that may sound crazy to some, but it seems (despite my presuppositions) to be a reliable and consistent finding that i've begun to accept. i guess after enough experiences it's hard to keep denying my senses

Yes mastering matters, which is why I said to compare sources from the same master preferably

In this specific case my suspicion is either the DAC of the CD player is simply superior or @Jefferson Hoëck has grown to like it's specific set of distortion (aka sound signature ;-) better...

As for noise in the digital domain it's only realistic if that noise can somewhat be transferred to the analog domain, for example via ground or EMC interferences. That's one reason why I prefer toslink between source and DAC, as it avoids any electrical coupling (and ground loops).

 

[Mr Ee]

My Marantz SACD player has a great DAC

SA8005?

Edit: and then I read the rest of the thread.
Got an SA8005 myself.
It really is very, very good.

 

[alpha_zulu]

SA8005?

Edit: and then I read the rest of the thread.
Got an SA8005 myself.
It really is very, very good.

It works with a CS4398 DAC, the same is integrated in my Marantz amplifier. Maybe that's the reason why I always end up here when I compare it with the built-in DAC of the WiiM pro plus. I have already written in another thread that I don't really hear any differences between the two when comparing them directly. Subconsciously, I always stick with the Marantz DAC after my test listenings, but I can't explain why.

 

[Steve Woodhouse]

there is also a school of thought (rubbished by many) that noise in the digital signal pathway has an influence on the performance of a given system. alpha-audio and the sound of ethernet have done some good work in this area... they think that common mode interference in the digital signal pathway can cause audible differences...

i'm with @Jefferson Hoëck on this one. mastering is the main reason for differences between media - imo especially the vinyl vs digital debate (and dynamic range has a lot to do with it). i can also hear differences between CD vs streaming. Until recently i actually felt that CD>streaming. but since my efforts to optimise my streaming system - i now prefer it to CD.

i can also hear differences between streamers/digital transports. that may sound crazy to some, but it seems (despite my presuppositions) to be a reliable and consistent finding that i've begun to accept. i guess after enough experiences it's hard to keep denying my senses

A well-articulated point. Many would counter that your ears are not trustworthy in these instances unless you’re doing a double blind comparison test.

 

[Jefferson Hoëck]

So today my hifi dealer brought a Naim streamer, the NDx5S2, for me to demo for a week. I have returned my Wiim Pro, and ordered a Pro Plus, both out of curiosity to see how it compares, in my system, to the Pro, and now the Naim.

I’ve had a few hours playing all three (Naim, Wiim P+ and ATV) & it’s clear(ish) to me, that the Pro Plus is a great piece of kit. I can hear positive differences over my Apple TV 4K+audio extractor in to my Arcam DAC, both with Plus in line out and optical out mode.

As for the Naim, a pretty expensive piece of kit, of course, I can certainly attest to its appreciable sonics, it sounds fantastic using its own DAC especially. It’s got a very different sound presentation to the Wiim, but though it’s early days, I’m not necessarily preferring it.

Before I tinker with the PEQ in Wiim settings, in an attempt to max it out when versing the Naim, are there any user experiences out there that anyone can share? I’ve read the Wiim blog guide, but I’d be interested in anyone’s thoughts here.
I remember seeing Terry Ellis (Pursuit Perfect System YT channel) wax lyrical about it last year. I’ve not got any experience, other than DAC filter options in previous set ups, that I didn’t really end up utilsing.

 

[BowsAndArrows]

A well-articulated point. Many would counter that your ears are not trustworthy in these instances unless you’re doing a double blind comparison test.

Funny you mention that, because I've been able to do some blind testing. Will post the findings in the snake oil update thread...