Lineair power supply

[Mike in NY]

And btw...the Kindergarten ASR is since a while only a place for measurement onanism for mostly first semester students.

Definite circle jerk.

 

[cc_rider]

Not always, remember the deeply flawed review and measurements of the Sonore microRendu?

While there has been revisionist history applied there to cover up the original botch job, that review concluded the mR could not be recommended because it was not bitperfect, and caused an 8dB rise at the analog output of the USB connected DAC.

All of that was of course completely false/inaccurate, said a lot about the competency of the reviewer, and also revealed an obvious agenda/axe to grind, as well as a failure to listen to the mR at all, as an 8dB rise surely would be easily/clearly audible to the most casual observer.

Also false was Amir's assertion that the iFi iPower was the "included" power supply with the microRendu, when in fact it was just one of several options offered by Sonore, who sold that unit by default sans PSU. Once corrected on that misrepresentation, he then tried to call the iPower Sonore's "recommended" PSU, which was also false, then tried to shift the goalposts entirely by turning the whole embarrassing debacle thing into a scathing indictment of the iPower itself.

Wow was there egg all over Amir's face when it was determined his test setup was deeply flawed, including Windows Media Player (really?), with the dithered software volume control enabled. No thats not bitperfect, not through the microRendu nor any other network endpoint either.

Microsoft, Windows Media Player, buying then immediately retiring HDCD... not exactly the stuff of audio legends there.

How about the steadfast backing of that complete crock of BS known as Master Quality Adulterated? Almost caused a mutiny among the faithful over there, didn't it?

ASR = groupthink extraordinaire, which is too bad because there are various good/knowledgable people posting there.

Nonsense

 

[Achim1811]

@Mike in NY
Your post at #180 made my day!
But there are always backdoors. Reading like "maybe there are DACs that can be effected...but I do not own such low quality equipment"
The handling of some headwind shows so much...

 

[steadyshot]

Well anyway . I don’t pretend to be an authority when my background is in finance and not in sound engineering/ electrical engineering. My guess is that cleaner current feeds the clock and the optical converter in optical out therefore jitter is reduced . I did back and forth with the Apple charger . I mean you don’t even have to try to hear the big difference

 

[canard]

Well anyway . I don’t pretend to be an authority when my background is in finance and not in sound engineering/ electrical engineering. My guess is that cleaner current feeds the clock and the optical converter in optical out therefore jitter is reduced . I did back and forth with the Apple charger . I mean you don’t even have to try to hear the big difference

if it is a story of jitter at the output of the mini which will be improved.. it is however easy to measure and check...
;-)

 

[Brantome]

if it is a story of jitter at the output of the mini which will be improved.. it is however easy to measure and check...
;-)

Hasn’t this old canard (pun intended) been gone over before ad nauseum - jitter doesn’t really matter on the WiiM’s digital outputs and even if it did, it’s more than handled by any competent external DAC?

 

[onlyoneme]

Well anyway . I don’t pretend to be an authority when my background is in finance and not in sound engineering/ electrical engineering. My guess is that cleaner current feeds the clock and the optical converter in optical out therefore jitter is reduced . I did back and forth with the Apple charger . I mean you don’t even have to try to hear the big difference

At least 4 cases for different chargers scenarios:
- charger affects the Mini and the result can be shown directly on the analog output for example
- charger affects the Mini and the result can be shown on the toslink output but measured through the receiver - so receiver's abilities to handle the incoming signal matters, like jitter suppression
- charger affects any other device in the audio chain through the Mini output
- charger affects any other device in the audio chain indirectly

Fourth case is unrelated to the Mini but it's related to the presence of low quality / outdated / vintage devices.
Third one can happen for the analog output when some issues like ground loop exist in the chain.
For the first case I've noticed a measurably significant difference only when the Mini was in idle state. No difference or insignificant one when it was playing anything.
Second case has been mentioned by me previously.

 

[onlyoneme]

Hasn’t this old canard (pun intended) been gone over before ad nauseum - jitter doesn’t really matter on the WiiM’s digital outputs and even if it did, it’s more than handled by any competent external DAC?

Look at the reports how the charger is supposed to affect the digital output and ask yourself if we are talking about competent devices in the chain... If we are not considering an illusion of course.

 

[steadyshot]

At least 3 cases for different chargers scenarios:
- charger affects the Mini and the result can be shown directly on the analog output for example
- charger affects the Mini and the result can be shown on the toslink output but measured through the receiver - so receiver's abilities to handle the incoming signal matters, like jitter suppression
- charger affects any other device in the audio chain through the Mini output
- charger affects any other device in the audio chain indirectly

Fourth case is unrelated to the Mini but it's related to the presence of low quality / outdated / vintage devices.
Third one can happen for the analog output when some issues like ground loop exist in the chain.
For the first case I've noticed a measurably significant difference only when the Mini was in idle state. No difference or insignificant one when it was playing anything.
Second case has been mentioned by me previously.

I agree that the charger can affect other devices indirectly .

As for the dac . It is vague to say that a dac has jitter suppression . How much jitter can it suppress ? In what way does it do that ? Are there any “costs” incurred the harder it works to suppress jitter? Is the digital waveform 100% readable from the dac ? What affects the synchronization of the clock of the dac to the streamer?

 

[onlyoneme]

I would suggest you to educate yourself when so many questions as you can find better answers than those ones I can provide. There are different incoming jitter suppression techniques, i.e. PLLs acting like low pass filter. A modern and properly designed DAC is able to remove incoming jitter enough to get a waveform bit-perfect to the source, in common scenarios like the one with Mini.

 

[steadyshot]

You suggestion to educate myself is welcome. However here is the opposition in summary : https://upscaleaudio.com/pages/bits-is-bits

 

[onlyoneme]

Especially when such a summary has no serious background in the knowledge presented before. Which part of the mentioned article is in the opposition to what I've said here?

 

[steadyshot]

The opposition covers also things you have supported in the past ,as for instance the example of hard drive in the thread about optical cables and the cable importance using again using the argument of bit perfect . But for now, as you can see from the partial screenshots, it states that interpolation - which is a form of error correction of the dac, is distortion. How will that be depicted on a graph? Would you able to discriminate or it will seem bit perfect? Again about jitter, if the dac will follow similar techniques to correct timing errors then it would be again a compromise, as it will again estimate the correct shape of waveform in order to interpret the correct order of 1s and 0s . It shows that error correction techniques have costs.

The source though is not the most credible but it raises some points that audiophile product manufacturers claim to be true.

So what is your background?

 

[onlyoneme]

The opposition covers also things you have supported in the past ,as for instance the example of hard drive in the thread about optical cables and the cable importance using again using the argument of bit perfect . But for now, as you can see from the partial screenshots, it states that interpolation - which is a form of error correction of the dac, is distortion. How will that be depicted on a graph? Would you able to discriminate or it will seem bit perfect? Again about jitter, if the dac will follow similar techniques to correct timing errors then it would be again a compromise, as it will again estimate the correct shape of waveform in order to interpret the correct order of 1s and 0s . It shows that error correction techniques have costs.

A simple path:

raw uncompressed audio file > streamer > audio stream over toslink > receiver > audio stream over usb > PC > raw uncompressed audio file

When audio file at the beginning is bit equal to the audio file at the end, we have a bit-perfect audio chain. That includes a time factor. And that also means that the jitter has been rejected successfully to get "a perfectly re-created sine wave" in the digital domain. Again, it's the Mini scenario when connected to the properly designed DAC.

Regarding SMPS example - it's a feature of modern devices, especially with amplifier circuits, to have PSR ratio high enough to suppress power supply noise. That's why some devices can be sensitive to SMPSes - low quality / obsolete / outdated / vintage ones. And partially "audiophile" ones.

 

[steadyshot]

A simple path:

raw uncompressed audio file > streamer > audio stream over toslink > receiver > audio stream over usb > PC > raw uncompressed audio file

When audio file at the beginning is bit equal to the audio file at the and, we have a bit-perfect audio chain. That includes a time factor. And that also means that the jitter has been rejected successfully to get "a perfectly re-created sine wave" in the digital domain. Again, it's the Mini scenario when connected to the properly designed DAC.

So you can copy and paste the waveforms input and output and they will 100% overlap, correct?So how many devices pass this test? I assume most... Therefore I am delusional and I hear voices. Ok I am out...

 

[onlyoneme]

Therefore I am delusional and I hear voices. Ok I am out...

If you say so, bye bye.

 

[Achim1811]

@steadyshot
Take this for what it is. Long time ago Thackeray wrote the standard book: Vanity Fair

 

[steadyshot]

@steadyshot
Take this for what it is. Long time ago Thackeray wrote the standard book: Vanity Fair

Yes exactly… But I prefer the bing gpt 4 powered ai anyway

 

[turbo2288]

People tend to believe what they "Wish" to be true, a $200 streamer sound just as good as a $2000 one. How I wish that to be true and I could be saving a lot of money. I remember 40 years ago they said all amplifiers sound the same, and now "1s and 0s sounds the same" nothing could be further from the truth, the more "resolving" the system is, more different could be heard. You could not measure sound reacts to human hearing, just like you can't measure food reacts to your taste bugs.

 

[likyfrances@]

Would WIIM mini or Pro benefit from a lineair power supply instead of a traditional power adapter. Would it improve the

Would WIIM mini or Pro benefit from a lineair power supply instead of a traditional power adapter. Would it improve the sound quality?

There's no doubt that the sound has a big improve if you have a Linear power supply instead.