Sound quality difference Plex vs. Amazon Unlimited through the Wiim

[FerengiROA]

Dumb question: what is plex , in a nut shell?

Plex is a media server that can send your audio/video files that you have stored on a PC/Mac, etc to your A/V or HT setup. For example, all my WAV/FLAC files and Blu-Ray rips are stored on an external HD which gets "cast" to my Roku or similar device to play on my AV systems.

There are different media servers like Jellyfin, etc, that basically do the same thing.

 

[Guest1]

Or you might use Roon and RoonArc and all your files are with you all over the world

 

[Giulio]

I believe there isn't a real difference in playback quality. However, that doesn't mean that two streams must necessarily sound the same, because even starting from the same source, choices can be made (usually in terms of levels and equalization) that then alter the outcome, whether it's a FLAC file or a streaming stream.

As I mentioned in another post, I follow lossless radio stations closely, and each one has its own "personality" regarding the characteristics of the transmitted streams, both in terms of level and timbre. But the same can be said for any music service, unless it defines itself as "Bit Perfect," but as far as I know, none of them do.

 

[CrystalGipsy]

Speaking of 2nd hand discs, do you buy from an online source, local, etc? Thinking of doing the same but concerned about damaged/unplayable CDs. Thanks for any leads.

Im in UK and buy from charity shops can find amazing bargains here, I am lucky to have me two 2nd hand record/CDs shops close by, online retailers such as MusicMagpie, World of Books, and Discogs. I check all the ones I am buying physically from shops. Online give a condition of the disc. Not had any issues with them playing or being ripped. They are in various conditions but as long as it plays I don’t care about the box.

 

[CrystalGipsy]

I believe there isn't a real difference in playback quality. However, that doesn't mean that two streams must necessarily sound the same, because even starting from the same source, choices can be made (usually in terms of levels and equalization) that then alter the outcome, whether it's a FLAC file or a streaming stream.

As I mentioned in another post, I follow lossless radio stations closely, and each one has its own "personality" regarding the characteristics of the transmitted streams, both in terms of level and timbre. But the same can be said for any music service, unless it defines itself as "Bit Perfect," but as far as I know, none of them do.

This is because all services except Qobuz apply volume levelling to manage loudness to some extent and all follow a slightly different LUFs target to achieve it. All the lossless streams are bit perfect if not then Tidals MQA would not have worked. Internet radio depends on the encoder they are using and flavour codec and system used to broadcast.

 

[Giulio]

This is because all services except Qobuz apply volume levelling to manage loudness to some extent and all follow a slightly different LUFs target to achieve it. All the lossless streams are bit perfect if not then Tidals MQA would not have worked. Internet radio depends on the encoder they are using and flavour codec and system used to broadcast.

But this applies to all streaming services, not just radio.
Does Amazon Music claim to be "Bit Perfect"? Not at all, so there's no guarantee that the output stream is identical to the source.
In fact, it's quite unlikely to be true.

 

[CrystalGipsy]

But this applies to all streaming services, not just radio.
Does Amazon Music claim to be "Bit Perfect"? Not at all, so there's no guarantee that the output stream is identical to the source.
In fact, it's quite unlikely to be true.

You can’t prove it isn’t either but I would say it most likely is for most services. AM difficulty to say as they do uses a dynamic variable bitrate where the others do not as you have to choose your quality. And as I said Tidal is or MQA would not work if not bit perfect. When I stream from Qobuz the exact same release and master that I have bought from them. When comparing as closely as I can, it sounds exactly the same.

 

[Giulio]

You can’t prove it isn’t either but I would say it most likely is for most services. AM difficulty to say as they do uses a dynamic variable bitrate where the others do not as you have to choose your quality. And as I said Tidal is or MQA would not work if not bit perfect. When I stream from Qobuz the exact same release and master that I have bought from them. When comparing as closely as I can, it sounds exactly the same.

Of course, I can't "prove" it... Is this a process?
However, I can point out that Amazon Music Unlimited labels and documents every single feature of its streams, and among those, there is no reference to Bit Perfect.
If such a feature is not mentioned, we should assume it's at least likely not being adhered to.

 

[CrystalGipsy]

It’s advertised as lossless, are they lying then. All services advertise it as lossless not bitperfect which is a term adopted by the hifi side of things not from the providers.

 

[Giulio]

It’s advertised as lossless, are they lying then. All services advertise it as lossless not bitperfect which is a term adopted by the hifi side of things not from the providers.

No, why would that be?
Lossless and Bit Perfect are distinct concepts. A lossless stream doesn't necessarily imply that it's also Bit Perfect.
Lossless simply means that compression and transfer technologies are used to ensure that the output stream is identical to what was sent.
Bit Perfect indicates that there have been no manipulations of any kind between the source and the sent stream.

 

[Wiimer]

But this applies to all streaming services, not just radio.
Does Amazon Music claim to be "Bit Perfect"? Not at all, so there's no guarantee that the output stream is identical to the source.
In fact, it's quite unlikely to be true.

Here is someone who compared his music files in two streams. This is not evidence, but I think it will be helpful.

Qobuz v Amazon UHD

Qobuz is better. It caters to the group with the ears and equipment to hear what they are paying for. Everyone I know who has Qobuz has upgraded to external DAC’s and better headphones because of the quality.

forum.wiimhome.com

 

[Giulio]

Here is someone who compared his music files in two streams. This is not evidence, but I think it will be helpful.

Qobuz v Amazon UHD

Qobuz is better. It caters to the group with the ears and equipment to hear what they are paying for. Everyone I know who has Qobuz has upgraded to external DAC’s and better headphones because of the quality.

forum.wiimhome.com

Here, this is good evidence that Amazon Music and Qobuz use the same streams, and rightly so, the author raises the question of whether this implies being Bit Perfect.
However, the conclusion they arrive at is rather weak: you don't need the manufacturer's consent to alter the timbre.
If that were the case, all radio stations, television networks, nightclubs, and so on would get into trouble.
The only thing we can say about that evidence, though very interesting, is that there is likely a common source that the major lossless streaming services rely on.
But nothing guarantees that this, in turn, is identical to the masters.
In fact, it's unlikely to be true because typical playback devices for physical media and streaming are different, and the parameters are calibrated to the device type.
So, a FLAC obtained, perhaps, through ripping a CD could very well have different characteristics from the one intended for streaming.
An indication of this is that there are often versions for streaming that are not available on physical media.

 

[d6jg]

Over in LMS world there was work recently to leverage the ReplayGain data that is included in Qobuz which implies that by default there is no volume levelling applied in the API delivered stream. We think that LMS uses the same API as WiiM but can't be sure. Who knows what is applied in the Qobuz apps and Web player.

As Amazon doesn't play nicely with LMS I have never really put it to the test but I have tried Qobuz, Tidal, Deezer and Spotify. Leaving aside Spotify which is clearly not even CD quality my preference is in the order stated i.e. Qobuz, Tidal, Deezer.

 

[CrystalGipsy]

Over in LMS world there was work recently to leverage the ReplayGain data that is included in Qobuz which implies that by default there is no volume levelling applied in the API delivered stream. We think that LMS uses the same API as WiiM but can't be sure. Who knows what is applied in the Qobuz apps and Web player.

As Amazon doesn't play nicely with LMS I have never really put it to the test but I have tried Qobuz, Tidal, Deezer and Spotify. Leaving aside Spotify which is clearly not even CD quality my preference is in the order stated i.e. Qobuz, Tidal, Deezer.

Qobuz doesn’t do any volume levelling in their app at all.

Roon only applies it if you turn on volume levelling. Same for Tidal and Spotify API streams don’t have it applied but the apps do but it can be defeated.

 

[CrystalGipsy]

No, why would that be?
Lossless and Bit Perfect are distinct concepts. A lossless stream doesn't necessarily imply that it's also Bit Perfect.
Lossless simply means that compression and transfer technologies are used to ensure that the output stream is identical to what was sent.
Bit Perfect indicates that there have been no manipulations of any kind between the source and the sent stream.

Lossless is lossless you get what they have as a source, hence lossless. This itself will have been provided to the specs of the service mastered to a set LUFs that they accept. Bit-perfect means what is sent over the net is received bit for bit same as source at your end, and is up to your kit to ensure it is. Or sending a file internally from server to streamer will imply if it’s doing so bit perfectly or not.

 

[Brantome]

Lossless is lossless you get what they have as a source, hence lossless. This itself will have been provided to the specs of the service mastered to a set LUFs that they accept. Bit-perfect means what is sent over the net is received bit for bit same as source at your end, and is up to your kit to ensure it is.

I wouldn’t apply the term bit perfect to what’s sent over the net - network protocols ensure what is received is exactly what’s sent, otherwise electronic file transfer would be pointless. Saying it’s bit perfect is a bit of a tautology. Applying bit perfect to how audio kit handles a received file is another matter.

 

[onlyoneme]

Bit-perfect term has different meanings as it depends on the context. Just one quoted statement to show how it can vary:
"The RIGHT sample at the WRONG time, is the WRONG sample"

 

[Giulio]

I wouldn’t apply the term bit perfect to what’s sent over the net - network protocols ensure what is received is exactly what’s sent, otherwise electronic file transfer would be pointless. Saying it’s bit perfect is a bit of a tautology. Applying bit perfect to how audio kit handles a received file is another matter.

In fact I didn't apply it to the channel but to the source.

 

[dssme]

I wouldn’t apply the term bit perfect to what’s sent over the net - network protocols ensure what is received is exactly what’s sent, otherwise electronic file transfer would be pointless. Saying it’s bit perfect is a bit of a tautology. Applying bit perfect to how audio kit handles a received file is another matter.

Indeed there are various level matching or bitrate manipulation based on different paywall levels and other potential variations brought by various streaming services, but even if Amazon Music or Qobuz doesn't alter the signal this way, there's also the effects from various masterings available for a lot of music, especially older material

One obvious example is between early CD pressings and more recent available copies, or also stream sources. Another example is between original CDs and "Greatest Hits" compilations with some of the same songs

One giant difference I've noticed is between the 1987 MCA CD of Lyle Lovett's "Pontiac" "If I Had A Boat" compared to the same song on the 2001 MCA Compilation CD "Anthology, Volume One: Cowboy Man"
There are so many examples but there is tons of compression applied to the compilation CD which makes it virtually unlistenable to me and if any streaming service offered the compressed remaster of the song, all the bitperfect on earth won't save it

 

[Brantome]

Indeed there are various level matching or bitrate manipulation based on different paywall levels and other potential variations brought by various streaming services, but even if Amazon Music or Qobuz doesn't alter the signal this way, there's also the effects from various masterings available for a lot of music, especially older material

One obvious example is between early CD pressings and more recent available copies, or also stream sources. Another example is between original CDs and "Greatest Hits" compilations with some of the same songs

One giant difference I've noticed is between the 1987 MCA CD of Lyle Lovett's "Pontiac" "If I Had A Boat" compared to the same song on the 2001 MCA Compilation CD "Anthology, Volume One: Cowboy Man"
There are so many examples but there is tons of compression applied to the compilation CD which makes it virtually unlistenable to me and if any streaming service offered the compressed remaster of the song, all the bitperfect on earth won't save it

Agreed, I was just disagreeing with using bit perfect to describe file transmission